Traffic Cop Charged With Death By Dangerous Driving
Discussion
This one probably goes hand in hand with the Collision Fault-Sanity Check thread.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/police-offic...
Long and short of it is traffic cop in Bristol signals a vehicle to stop, it fails to do so and makes off, speeds of 90mph+ are reached prior to the pursued vehicle colliding with a Honda Jazz and the driver making off.
Police officer brings his vehicle to a stop and doesn't collide with anything, goes to assist the driver of the Honda who is seriously injured and sadly dies a few days later. Police officer now on trial for causing death by dangerous driving.
Article says police officer trained to the highest level of police driving, authorised to pursue and all training/refreshers up to date.
You'd like to think that the jury will return a unanimous not guilty on this.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/police-offic...
Long and short of it is traffic cop in Bristol signals a vehicle to stop, it fails to do so and makes off, speeds of 90mph+ are reached prior to the pursued vehicle colliding with a Honda Jazz and the driver making off.
Police officer brings his vehicle to a stop and doesn't collide with anything, goes to assist the driver of the Honda who is seriously injured and sadly dies a few days later. Police officer now on trial for causing death by dangerous driving.
Article says police officer trained to the highest level of police driving, authorised to pursue and all training/refreshers up to date.
You'd like to think that the jury will return a unanimous not guilty on this.
Slightly more info on the BBC article:
bbc said:
Ledward said: "The prosecution's case is that although Lewis Griffin's dangerous driving was the principal and immediate cause of Keryl Johnson's death, Mr Pike's driving was also dangerous and contributed to, and so in terms of the law, caused her death.
"He pursued the car in a manner, and for a period of time, which was objectively dangerous in that it fell below the standards expected of a careful driver."
Ledward said Pike was "trained to the most advanced level" of police pursuits and had received all the relevant refresher training.
He was authorised, in accordance with Avon and Somerset Police policies, to operate in any emergency phase of driving - including the initial pursuit phase and the final tactical phase of a pursuit, she added.
The trial continues.
"He pursued the car in a manner, and for a period of time, which was objectively dangerous in that it fell below the standards expected of a careful driver."
Ledward said Pike was "trained to the most advanced level" of police pursuits and had received all the relevant refresher training.
He was authorised, in accordance with Avon and Somerset Police policies, to operate in any emergency phase of driving - including the initial pursuit phase and the final tactical phase of a pursuit, she added.
The trial continues.
Getragdogleg said:
So who has decided that this is what needed doing ?
Did other Police folk back at the station watch the car camera footage and say "yup, hes been daft here" ?
Was he disliked ?
The article doesn't say.Did other Police folk back at the station watch the car camera footage and say "yup, hes been daft here" ?
Was he disliked ?
It was perhaps the same people who decided that a firearms officer who shot dead a violent career criminal who was trying to run him over with a car should be charged with murder.
Getragdogleg said:
So who has decided that this is what needed doing ?
Did other Police folk back at the station watch the car camera footage and say "yup, hes been daft here" ?
Was he disliked ?
I would imagine it was the CPS as a charge of death by dangerous driving would need CPS authorisation, Did other Police folk back at the station watch the car camera footage and say "yup, hes been daft here" ?
Was he disliked ?
(I will caveat the following by saying I have no knowledge of this incident),
It seems now with some of the Police matters going to court that the authorities don't want to be accused of a cover up so they will send a matter to court for a full trial.
There is probably more to this than the very brief article quoted.
What time of day was it, did he ignore directions, were the dangers obvious?
I agree that a jury is very unlikely to find a police driver guilty on the very sparse details quoted. Mind you, although the CPS is, supposedly, exempt from pressure from the police and government, in practice it isn't, and this is particularly so for the top briefs. I would assume such a decision as this would have been at the top level.
There are plenty of examples where CPS have charged defendants where the disclosure shows insufficient evidence. Some cases have been thrown out by judges before hearing pleas, and that's pretty definitive for poor, possibly corrupt, high level decisions.
What time of day was it, did he ignore directions, were the dangers obvious?
I agree that a jury is very unlikely to find a police driver guilty on the very sparse details quoted. Mind you, although the CPS is, supposedly, exempt from pressure from the police and government, in practice it isn't, and this is particularly so for the top briefs. I would assume such a decision as this would have been at the top level.
There are plenty of examples where CPS have charged defendants where the disclosure shows insufficient evidence. Some cases have been thrown out by judges before hearing pleas, and that's pretty definitive for poor, possibly corrupt, high level decisions.
Edited by Derek Smith on Friday 9th January 17:07
budgie smuggler said:
Slightly more info on the BBC article:
Would there be any pursuit where the police officer's driving, when judged against the standard of the careful and competent driver featured in the legislation, would not be deemed to be dangerous?bbc said:
Ledward said: "The prosecution's case is that although Lewis Griffin's dangerous driving was the principal and immediate cause of Keryl Johnson's death, Mr Pike's driving was also dangerous and contributed to, and so in terms of the law, caused her death.
"He pursued the car in a manner, and for a period of time, which was objectively dangerous in that it fell below the standards expected of a careful driver."
Ledward said Pike was "trained to the most advanced level" of police pursuits and had received all the relevant refresher training.
He was authorised, in accordance with Avon and Somerset Police policies, to operate in any emergency phase of driving - including the initial pursuit phase and the final tactical phase of a pursuit, she added.
The trial continues.
"He pursued the car in a manner, and for a period of time, which was objectively dangerous in that it fell below the standards expected of a careful driver."
Ledward said Pike was "trained to the most advanced level" of police pursuits and had received all the relevant refresher training.
He was authorised, in accordance with Avon and Somerset Police policies, to operate in any emergency phase of driving - including the initial pursuit phase and the final tactical phase of a pursuit, she added.
The trial continues.
By that I mean I mean that if any of us, or in fact a pursuit trained police officer drove our own cars through a town centre at the speeds the police often need to drive at in a pursuit situation, we'd likely be quite correctly charged with dangerous driving.
A police pursuit is a unique situation that the "careful and competent driver" is never likely to encounter and I don't think it's fair to judge a police officer engaged in a pursuit to that standard.
Harry Rule said:
budgie smuggler said:
Slightly more info on the BBC article:
Would there be any pursuit where the police officer's driving, when judged against the standard of the careful and competent driver featured in the legislation, would not be deemed to be dangerous?bbc said:
Ledward said: "The prosecution's case is that although Lewis Griffin's dangerous driving was the principal and immediate cause of Keryl Johnson's death, Mr Pike's driving was also dangerous and contributed to, and so in terms of the law, caused her death.
"He pursued the car in a manner, and for a period of time, which was objectively dangerous in that it fell below the standards expected of a careful driver."
Ledward said Pike was "trained to the most advanced level" of police pursuits and had received all the relevant refresher training.
He was authorised, in accordance with Avon and Somerset Police policies, to operate in any emergency phase of driving - including the initial pursuit phase and the final tactical phase of a pursuit, she added.
The trial continues.
"He pursued the car in a manner, and for a period of time, which was objectively dangerous in that it fell below the standards expected of a careful driver."
Ledward said Pike was "trained to the most advanced level" of police pursuits and had received all the relevant refresher training.
He was authorised, in accordance with Avon and Somerset Police policies, to operate in any emergency phase of driving - including the initial pursuit phase and the final tactical phase of a pursuit, she added.
The trial continues.
By that I mean I mean that if any of us, or in fact a pursuit trained police officer drove our own cars through a town centre at the speeds the police often need to drive at in a pursuit situation, we'd likely be quite correctly charged with dangerous driving.
A police pursuit is a unique situation that the "careful and competent driver" is never likely to encounter and I don't think it's fair to judge a police officer engaged in a pursuit to that standard.
I'd love to know the finer details, chasing cars just isn't worth it anymore.
paul_c123 said:
There is not enough information in either of the articles to make the decision, it will be down to the details of the incident itself, not the principle that the pursued was 100% to blame thus the chaser is 0%. Will follow and hope for more substantial info.
Also nothing to indicate what the reason for the initial stop wasHarry Rule said:
Would there be any pursuit where the police officer's driving, when judged against the standard of the careful and competent driver featured in the legislation, would not be deemed to be dangerous?
By that I mean I mean that if any of us, or in fact a pursuit trained police officer drove our own cars through a town centre at the speeds the police often need to drive at in a pursuit situation, we'd likely be quite correctly charged with dangerous driving.
A police pursuit is a unique situation that the "careful and competent driver" is never likely to encounter and I don't think it's fair to judge a police officer engaged in a pursuit to that standard.
Funnily enough, this issue was rectified not all that long ago. By that I mean I mean that if any of us, or in fact a pursuit trained police officer drove our own cars through a town centre at the speeds the police often need to drive at in a pursuit situation, we'd likely be quite correctly charged with dangerous driving.
A police pursuit is a unique situation that the "careful and competent driver" is never likely to encounter and I don't think it's fair to judge a police officer engaged in a pursuit to that standard.
Section 2A of the Road Traffic Act 1988 was amended to change the legal test for an officer, who is driving for police purposes, and who has undertaken prescribed training.
In such circumstances it is driving dangerously if (and, subject to subsection (2), only if) the way the person drives falls far below what would be expected of a competent and careful constable who has undertaken the same prescribed training, and it would be obvious to such a competent and careful constable that driving in that way would be dangerous.
TheK1981 said:
Someone I know was traffic police, he reckoned he abandoned more pursuits than completed as it got too dangerous and the risk of something happening when its him that will get in trouble,
I presume at some point they will release the video of the driving all round?
Traffic cop here. I presume at some point they will release the video of the driving all round?
I'm the same. Four years on traffic. Two pursuits. Countless fail to stops but just not worth it.
Had two friends go to stop a motorcyclist. He failed to stop. Five minutes later he crashes and dies. He wasnt pursued. The s
te that they went through was terrible. If the courses weren't so fun and its time not picking up paperwork (and also a requirement on RPU to be TPAC) id hand my ticket in.
LosingGrip said:
Traffic cop here.
I'm the same. Four years on traffic. Two pursuits. Countless fail to stops but just not worth it.
Had two friends go to stop a motorcyclist. He failed to stop. Five minutes later he crashes and dies. He wasnt pursued. The ste that they went through was terrible.
If the courses weren't so fun and its time not picking up paperwork (and also a requirement on RPU to be TPAC) id hand my ticket in.
What a crazy world we live in. I'm the same. Four years on traffic. Two pursuits. Countless fail to stops but just not worth it.
Had two friends go to stop a motorcyclist. He failed to stop. Five minutes later he crashes and dies. He wasnt pursued. The s
te that they went through was terrible. If the courses weren't so fun and its time not picking up paperwork (and also a requirement on RPU to be TPAC) id hand my ticket in.
You must find it so frustrating!
LosingGrip said:
TheK1981 said:
Someone I know was traffic police, he reckoned he abandoned more pursuits than completed as it got too dangerous and the risk of something happening when its him that will get in trouble,
I presume at some point they will release the video of the driving all round?
Traffic cop here. I presume at some point they will release the video of the driving all round?
I'm the same. Four years on traffic. Two pursuits. Countless fail to stops but just not worth it.
Had two friends go to stop a motorcyclist. He failed to stop. Five minutes later he crashes and dies. He wasnt pursued. The s
te that they went through was terrible. If the courses weren't so fun and its time not picking up paperwork (and also a requirement on RPU to be TPAC) id hand my ticket in.
I was at a meeting where the PCC from Avon and Somerset was present with a number of officers regarding motorcycle thefts.
In conversations the question was asked why the police do not chase that many thrives on bikes?
The answer was not enough fully trained pursuit drivers and that if a pursuit gets too dangerous they have to stop. The example given were the death in Hartcliffe where a local lad died gave rise to riots hence the reluctance to do more hard stops.
On the face of this it seems strange there have been charges laid but clearly we do not have full facts which will appear in due course
In conversations the question was asked why the police do not chase that many thrives on bikes?
The answer was not enough fully trained pursuit drivers and that if a pursuit gets too dangerous they have to stop. The example given were the death in Hartcliffe where a local lad died gave rise to riots hence the reluctance to do more hard stops.
On the face of this it seems strange there have been charges laid but clearly we do not have full facts which will appear in due course
The reporting doesn't make sense. Apparently the Prosecution(?) said:
"There is no suggestion that he did anything other than act bravely, professionally and selflessly, and entirely in accordance with his duties as a police officer, in what must have been absolutely dreadful moments.” That is either totally out of context, or from the Defence.
Must be more to this than meets the eye. Otherwise it sounds grossly unfair- even if you believe that high speed pursuits are in principle too dangerous, that is a policy issue and not a reason to prosecute an individual officer.
"There is no suggestion that he did anything other than act bravely, professionally and selflessly, and entirely in accordance with his duties as a police officer, in what must have been absolutely dreadful moments.” That is either totally out of context, or from the Defence.
Must be more to this than meets the eye. Otherwise it sounds grossly unfair- even if you believe that high speed pursuits are in principle too dangerous, that is a policy issue and not a reason to prosecute an individual officer.
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