1930s Bow windows that look good
Discussion
We have a 1930s bow window house. We're looking for new windows that look as close to the original ones as possible.
Every single company we've been to so far (local and national) regardless of material and cost only offers insanely chunky frames with much less glass than the original ones. Timberwindows.com seem to offer the best ones we've seen so far, but they are still much heavier looking that the original ones.
The current 20 year old UPVC windows we have installed are chunky enough, but there seems to be an arms race in the industry at the moment to create more frame and less glass. I've been told that it's building regs requiring additional structural support in the frame of a bow window- but I'm sure the additional structural support is only needed because modern window units are so heavy in the first place.
...and don't get me started on weep vents.
Here is the kind of look we're trying to avoid:
and this is what we're aiming for:
I'm not bothered about additional structural support in the bay or weep vents as the house has survived without these for almost a century.
Surely it's not beyond the wit of man to design a lightweight, strong double glazed bow window with frame profiles as slim as they were able to achieve in 1935?
Any recommendations are much appreciated.
Every single company we've been to so far (local and national) regardless of material and cost only offers insanely chunky frames with much less glass than the original ones. Timberwindows.com seem to offer the best ones we've seen so far, but they are still much heavier looking that the original ones.
The current 20 year old UPVC windows we have installed are chunky enough, but there seems to be an arms race in the industry at the moment to create more frame and less glass. I've been told that it's building regs requiring additional structural support in the frame of a bow window- but I'm sure the additional structural support is only needed because modern window units are so heavy in the first place.
...and don't get me started on weep vents.
Here is the kind of look we're trying to avoid:
and this is what we're aiming for:
I'm not bothered about additional structural support in the bay or weep vents as the house has survived without these for almost a century.
Surely it's not beyond the wit of man to design a lightweight, strong double glazed bow window with frame profiles as slim as they were able to achieve in 1935?
Any recommendations are much appreciated.
Edited by banger54 on Tuesday 13th January 09:05
You could improve upon the first image with uPVC but you'll probably have to find a manufacturer / supplier that specifically offers slim profile windows.
I worked at a window / door / conservatory manufacturer many years ago, we did make some 'slim profile' units now and again, but I'm not sure what the limitations were in terms of size and location on the house.
The window in the first image, for example would look a lot less bulkier if the windows were fixed rather than opening, as you'd then have less additional 'frame' around the glass. You could also potentially do away with the horizontal transom, and just have 5 x tall fixed glass panes (obviously not ideal if you want / need opening windows, but just from a visual perspective).
Being a bow window makes it tricker, but even if you go custom alu / timber, you're still going to have at least 5 panes, and the thickness of the frames will depend upon how they're able to make them.
You can see the visual difference of fixed panes here:
If you have to have openers, I'd just opt for the those nearest the walls:
I worked at a window / door / conservatory manufacturer many years ago, we did make some 'slim profile' units now and again, but I'm not sure what the limitations were in terms of size and location on the house.
The window in the first image, for example would look a lot less bulkier if the windows were fixed rather than opening, as you'd then have less additional 'frame' around the glass. You could also potentially do away with the horizontal transom, and just have 5 x tall fixed glass panes (obviously not ideal if you want / need opening windows, but just from a visual perspective).
Being a bow window makes it tricker, but even if you go custom alu / timber, you're still going to have at least 5 panes, and the thickness of the frames will depend upon how they're able to make them.
You can see the visual difference of fixed panes here:
If you have to have openers, I'd just opt for the those nearest the walls:
wolfracesonic said:
I don t think you re going to get the look you want with upvc, you ll have to go down the steel/aluminium, Crittal style route or have them made in timber and accept the massive uplift in cost over plastic.
This - you might want to look at Origin. We went with them for our '30s bay windowed semi. The installers had to come up with a way of doing the bay (as they were concerned over the load-bearing element) but we got there in the end. They may have a system for it now.We still get the odd person knocking on and asking what windows we have.
We have a house made up of a really old, non-listed 16th century part and then 3 separate extensions. None of the extensions were done by us. when we moved in we wanted to try and normalise the windows to have a little continuity and were able to get some made by a local carpenter who built them to our requests. We are the third generation of the same family to live in this house and we have no plan/desire to break that chain so were able to be a little less concerned with having the correct certificates. We had timber hardwood frames made to fit with double glazed panels in all. We were able to choose the opener etc and it worked out well. Have had the windows for 3 years now and they are holding up well, were repainted last summer to keep them looking fresh and the heat retention benefits over the old metal framed, single glazed windows (that now make up the greenhouse) is noticeable. People do exist that will make something but you need to be mindful of what you will need if you ever come to sell. Also, be mindful of any of these types when it comes to paying, all up front is often a sign to walk.
We had the same problem 5 years ago on a 5 'panel' bay window. We went for the 3 central panels being full height & fixed with the outer 2 having opening lower & small upper opening windows. Improved our view across the valley with no upper bar across the 3 central panels and no opening window frames.
smithyithy said:
You could improve upon the first image with uPVC but you'll probably have to find a manufacturer / supplier that specifically offers slim profile windows.
I worked at a window / door / conservatory manufacturer many years ago, we did make some 'slim profile' units now and again, but I'm not sure what the limitations were in terms of size and location on the house.
The window in the first image, for example would look a lot less bulkier if the windows were fixed rather than opening, as you'd then have less additional 'frame' around the glass. You could also potentially do away with the horizontal transom, and just have 5 x tall fixed glass panes (obviously not ideal if you want / need opening windows, but just from a visual perspective).
Being a bow window makes it tricker, but even if you go custom alu / timber, you're still going to have at least 5 panes, and the thickness of the frames will depend upon how they're able to make them.
You can see the visual difference of fixed panes here:
If you have to have openers, I'd just opt for the those nearest the walls:
I worked at a window / door / conservatory manufacturer many years ago, we did make some 'slim profile' units now and again, but I'm not sure what the limitations were in terms of size and location on the house.
The window in the first image, for example would look a lot less bulkier if the windows were fixed rather than opening, as you'd then have less additional 'frame' around the glass. You could also potentially do away with the horizontal transom, and just have 5 x tall fixed glass panes (obviously not ideal if you want / need opening windows, but just from a visual perspective).
Being a bow window makes it tricker, but even if you go custom alu / timber, you're still going to have at least 5 panes, and the thickness of the frames will depend upon how they're able to make them.
You can see the visual difference of fixed panes here:
If you have to have openers, I'd just opt for the those nearest the walls:
when we were replacing our 1930's windows (including a bay) the company advised us to do this. Not every pane needs to open and any openers by the house walls The panes in the first photo likely aren't openers - I think they're referred to as flush casement. It was an option on our windows, but on the front elevation we didn't go for that as obviously they're thicker as a result. i wouldn't have had them on the rear either but the wife preferred them...
wolfracesonic said:
I don t think you re going to get the look you want with upvc, you ll have to go down the steel/aluminium, Crittal style route or have them made in timber and accept the massive uplift in cost over plastic.
Timber isn't a massive uplift in cost over good quality UPVC ones (at least at timberwindows.com)... maybe 20%. They are still too chunky though. banger54 said:
wolfracesonic said:
I don t think you re going to get the look you want with upvc, you ll have to go down the steel/aluminium, Crittal style route or have them made in timber and accept the massive uplift in cost over plastic.
Timber isn't a massive uplift in cost over good quality UPVC ones (at least at timberwindows.com)... maybe 20%. They are still too chunky though. Swervin_Mervin said:
This - you might want to look at Origin. We went with them for our '30s bay windowed semi. The installers had to come up with a way of doing the bay (as they were concerned over the load-bearing element) but we got there in the end. They may have a system for it now.
We still get the odd person knocking on and asking what windows we have.
thanks- that's set me in the right direction I think..aluminium Origin / Alitherm 800 may be the way to go.We still get the odd person knocking on and asking what windows we have.
Sford said:
We have a house made up of a really old, non-listed 16th century part and then 3 separate extensions. None of the extensions were done by us. when we moved in we wanted to try and normalise the windows to have a little continuity and were able to get some made by a local carpenter who built them to our requests. We are the third generation of the same family to live in this house and we have no plan/desire to break that chain so were able to be a little less concerned with having the correct certificates. We had timber hardwood frames made to fit with double glazed panels in all. We were able to choose the opener etc and it worked out well. Have had the windows for 3 years now and they are holding up well, were repainted last summer to keep them looking fresh and the heat retention benefits over the old metal framed, single glazed windows (that now make up the greenhouse) is noticeable. People do exist that will make something but you need to be mindful of what you will need if you ever come to sell. Also, be mindful of any of these types when it comes to paying, all up front is often a sign to walk.
Sounds like an option. I'm not bothered about Fensa certification/ building regs either, even though this isn't our forever home. The current industry's obsession with weep vents puts me right off having "approved" windows, whatever that means. banger54 said:
Sounds like an option. I'm not bothered about Fensa certification/ building regs either, even though this isn't our forever home. The current industry's obsession with weep vents puts me right off having "approved" windows, whatever that means.
You can normally go and see their work locally as well to see if it fits with what you want. We got the details for our guy from a friend of a friend. He did them in batches so would do three a day. Came out and measured, then came back once they were made to fit them. The delay was the glass, getting the units made and sent to him so that he could fit. No weep vents, no massive frames. We had bow windows at my parents old house and one of their big regrets was having the upvc fitted to them. Did improve the thermals but made them almost all frame. banger54 said:
Swervin_Mervin said:
This - you might want to look at Origin. We went with them for our '30s bay windowed semi. The installers had to come up with a way of doing the bay (as they were concerned over the load-bearing element) but we got there in the end. They may have a system for it now.
We still get the odd person knocking on and asking what windows we have.
thanks- that's set me in the right direction I think..aluminium Origin / Alitherm 800 may be the way to go.We still get the odd person knocking on and asking what windows we have.
Energy Efficiency.
In 1935 this was of no concern at all, thicker frames mean bigger air chambers and lower U values.
Weep vents are a function of the above, its to stop water building up inside the frame, without them I would guess the sealed units would last months and you can get damage to brick work and damp inside the room etc.
Aluminum is the slimmest profile, if you can find anyone still using it the Alitherm 300 is the slimmest of the lot.
In 1935 this was of no concern at all, thicker frames mean bigger air chambers and lower U values.
Weep vents are a function of the above, its to stop water building up inside the frame, without them I would guess the sealed units would last months and you can get damage to brick work and damp inside the room etc.
Aluminum is the slimmest profile, if you can find anyone still using it the Alitherm 300 is the slimmest of the lot.
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