Why do car makers get the simple things wrong?
Discussion
I’m currently driving a hire car which is a brand new Mini Cooper S, which tuns out to be a 30k car, it’s pretty quick, looks decent and they’ve packed it full of kit like led headlights, self parking HK stereo and all the usual stuff you get on new cars
But here’s the problem, it’s missing so many of the basics, the seats are the worst I have ever sat in, they have no lumbar or thigh support and are so hard it’s like sitting on a wooden bench, I drive in for a hour and have back and hip pain, which in contrast to my mk7 fiesta ST had the best seats ever
The cup holders are in a good location but they don’t have any grippers in them, so everting from a coffee cup to a bottle of water moves around constantly
There’s a tray between the middle seats that is so shallow and doesn’t have any matting in so what every you put there like your sun glasses or keys then slide into the cup holder or down the side of the seat anytime you drive anywhere
The door bins are so small you can’t put your sunglasses or even a bottle of 500ml water in them (the door plastics are so cheap feeling too)
The arm rest don’t open or move, and is so far back you can’t even use it, and the door padding arm rest is as hard as the plastic in my old transit van
It wants a mini account to do basic settings like unlocking all 4 doors at once instead of just the drivers or adjust the time the lights stay on for after you get out, which is infuriating.
I also recently had a MG HS which was brand new and the cruise control wouldn’t engage, the —- came up in the dash but the car wouldn’t accept the speed, there was also no volume knob so only the driver could adjust the volume
Why do manufacturers insist on getting these basic things wrong? It’s turned from what would be a really decent hot hatch into a absolute annoyance
But here’s the problem, it’s missing so many of the basics, the seats are the worst I have ever sat in, they have no lumbar or thigh support and are so hard it’s like sitting on a wooden bench, I drive in for a hour and have back and hip pain, which in contrast to my mk7 fiesta ST had the best seats ever
The cup holders are in a good location but they don’t have any grippers in them, so everting from a coffee cup to a bottle of water moves around constantly
There’s a tray between the middle seats that is so shallow and doesn’t have any matting in so what every you put there like your sun glasses or keys then slide into the cup holder or down the side of the seat anytime you drive anywhere
The door bins are so small you can’t put your sunglasses or even a bottle of 500ml water in them (the door plastics are so cheap feeling too)
The arm rest don’t open or move, and is so far back you can’t even use it, and the door padding arm rest is as hard as the plastic in my old transit van
It wants a mini account to do basic settings like unlocking all 4 doors at once instead of just the drivers or adjust the time the lights stay on for after you get out, which is infuriating.
I also recently had a MG HS which was brand new and the cruise control wouldn’t engage, the —- came up in the dash but the car wouldn’t accept the speed, there was also no volume knob so only the driver could adjust the volume
Why do manufacturers insist on getting these basic things wrong? It’s turned from what would be a really decent hot hatch into a absolute annoyance
I can't see that seats are a "simple thing".
They have to be comfortable for every possible buyer worldwide, from the 80 year old Granny to the 18 year old basketball star to the stairs-dominating, PH-posting company director.
At the same time they also have to support the driver while cornering enthusiastically.
While also, should said cornering become too enthusiastic, remaining secure and holding the driver in place during a crash impact sequence to allow the airbags etc to work effectively.
They must be breathable, yet not absorb stains or odours. Fashionable, yet not date too quickly. Offer a range of colours and patterns without over-complicating production.
In many cars they must accommodate heating and perhaps cooling and massage functions as optional extras.
They must adjust every which way via easily understood controls, which will work reliably for 20 years of use and abuse.
They must look attractive and expensive in the showroom, yet cost the manufacturer as little as possible.
There's a story that early in the DaimlerChrysler merger the two companies compared parts costs - often a major opportunity for easy wins when bringing two companies together. The US engineers, keen to be helpful, spotted that their seats were a lot less expensive, and sent a couple of samples to Germany along with a document showing how much Chrysler paid for them, and a note saying 'we think Mercedes is being ripped off on their seats'.
The German engineers analysed the Chrysler seats closely, and wrote a report outlining all the ways they were inferior to their own. The conclusion of the report said "no, it is you who are paying too much".
Quattr04. said:
I m currently driving a hire car which is a brand new Mini Cooper S, which tuns out to be a 30k car, it s pretty quick, looks decent and they ve packed it full of kit like led headlights, self parking HK stereo and all the usual stuff you get on new cars
But here s the problem, it s missing so many of the basics, the seats are the worst I have ever sat in, they have no lumbar or thigh support and are so hard it s like sitting on a wooden bench, I drive in for a hour and have back and hip pain, which in contrast to my mk7 fiesta ST had the best seats ever
The cup holders are in a good location but they don t have any grippers in them, so everting from a coffee cup to a bottle of water moves around constantly
There s a tray between the middle seats that is so shallow and doesn t have any matting in so what every you put there like your sun glasses or keys then slide into the cup holder or down the side of the seat anytime you drive anywhere
The door bins are so small you can t put your sunglasses or even a bottle of 500ml water in them (the door plastics are so cheap feeling too)
The arm rest don t open or move, and is so far back you can t even use it, and the door padding arm rest is as hard as the plastic in my old transit van
It wants a mini account to do basic settings like unlocking all 4 doors at once instead of just the drivers or adjust the time the lights stay on for after you get out, which is infuriating.
I also recently had a MG HS which was brand new and the cruise control wouldn t engage, the - came up in the dash but the car wouldn t accept the speed, there was also no volume knob so only the driver could adjust the volume
Why do manufacturers insist on getting these basic things wrong? It s turned from what would be a really decent hot hatch into a absolute annoyance
AFAIK BMW Minis never had adjustable lumber or thigh support, but at least they had height adjustment for the base unlike all the Fiestas I've been in. They felt like you were sitting on them rather than in them!But here s the problem, it s missing so many of the basics, the seats are the worst I have ever sat in, they have no lumbar or thigh support and are so hard it s like sitting on a wooden bench, I drive in for a hour and have back and hip pain, which in contrast to my mk7 fiesta ST had the best seats ever
The cup holders are in a good location but they don t have any grippers in them, so everting from a coffee cup to a bottle of water moves around constantly
There s a tray between the middle seats that is so shallow and doesn t have any matting in so what every you put there like your sun glasses or keys then slide into the cup holder or down the side of the seat anytime you drive anywhere
The door bins are so small you can t put your sunglasses or even a bottle of 500ml water in them (the door plastics are so cheap feeling too)
The arm rest don t open or move, and is so far back you can t even use it, and the door padding arm rest is as hard as the plastic in my old transit van
It wants a mini account to do basic settings like unlocking all 4 doors at once instead of just the drivers or adjust the time the lights stay on for after you get out, which is infuriating.
I also recently had a MG HS which was brand new and the cruise control wouldn t engage, the - came up in the dash but the car wouldn t accept the speed, there was also no volume knob so only the driver could adjust the volume
Why do manufacturers insist on getting these basic things wrong? It s turned from what would be a really decent hot hatch into a absolute annoyance
Maybe that one has something missing from the cup-holers? Mrs Tidy's R50 and R56 Minis both had grippers in the cup-holders, although her drivers side one has come out after she rammed a large bottle in.
Nothing is perfect, but not being able to put a 500ml water bottle in the door pocket wouldn't bother me if I could put a 250ml one in the cup-holder. And I'd rather not have a volume control a passenger couldn't interfere with!
Some fascinating remarks about seats .Almost all Saab threads praise their seats, and the same with traditional Volvos (no, they are not small cars). Then you have elderly Renaults and Citroens with big, soft armchairs as also in Ford Scorpios hardly for rallying, but just so comfy. All of these did well with seats, so what went wrong?
It s cost with BMW, I m sure of it. For BMW to compete against the eastern manufacturers they have to chop some bits out.
Things that d appear on a direct comparison eg parking sensors or cruise they have to leave in, but the peripheral stuff nobody would think to check seems to get removed from the standard spec.
Of course you can have lumbar sir, it comes with the MFoxtons pack at £1595.
Our decade old JCW has ace seats I ve done two hours in in perfect comfort, they re height adjustable and I think they have lumbar too, decent door bins, proper padded armrests and the design is a mile away from the current Mini junk I looked at.
Our X5 is built cheap too. Standard spec is very basic. Quality wise an older one has chunky external plastics, the front grille parts on the current model are like flexible wobbly creaky Temu knockoffs, and don t get me started on the exhaust trims - one jet wash and the spray paint fell off.
Things that d appear on a direct comparison eg parking sensors or cruise they have to leave in, but the peripheral stuff nobody would think to check seems to get removed from the standard spec.
Of course you can have lumbar sir, it comes with the MFoxtons pack at £1595.
Our decade old JCW has ace seats I ve done two hours in in perfect comfort, they re height adjustable and I think they have lumbar too, decent door bins, proper padded armrests and the design is a mile away from the current Mini junk I looked at.
Our X5 is built cheap too. Standard spec is very basic. Quality wise an older one has chunky external plastics, the front grille parts on the current model are like flexible wobbly creaky Temu knockoffs, and don t get me started on the exhaust trims - one jet wash and the spray paint fell off.
When it comes to seats, I think at least a certain portion of it comes down to how well the space around the seat has been designed. For example, how easily do your arms fall on the armrests, are the armrests the same height, can you reach primary controls i.e. steering wheel while your elbows are resting, is there sufficient space for you to move your legs about on a longer journey without fouling the steering wheel, dashboard or footrest, and so on.
I "drive" a Boeing for a living and on longer flights, the seating position in the flight deck gets pretty uncomfortable not because the seat lacks adjustment, but because there's absolutely no space for your legs courtesy of the yoke infront of you and then the space between your feet it blocked up by adjustment for the rudder pedals. You also can't reach everything from a normal seating position with some controls either above or even behind your head or the other pilots head. Ergonomically, it is bloody awful.
I used to have a LWB XJ, of 2006 vintage, which I sold within a few months of purchase as I found on longer trips the lack of space for the driver because uncomfortable, even though the seats themselves were fine. No matter what I did to adjust the seats, wheel and pedals, my left knee was forever up against the dash.
So while the seat is one thing, the space around it has to be comfortably designed too IMO.
I "drive" a Boeing for a living and on longer flights, the seating position in the flight deck gets pretty uncomfortable not because the seat lacks adjustment, but because there's absolutely no space for your legs courtesy of the yoke infront of you and then the space between your feet it blocked up by adjustment for the rudder pedals. You also can't reach everything from a normal seating position with some controls either above or even behind your head or the other pilots head. Ergonomically, it is bloody awful.
I used to have a LWB XJ, of 2006 vintage, which I sold within a few months of purchase as I found on longer trips the lack of space for the driver because uncomfortable, even though the seats themselves were fine. No matter what I did to adjust the seats, wheel and pedals, my left knee was forever up against the dash.
So while the seat is one thing, the space around it has to be comfortably designed too IMO.
Basics - yes definitely
On recent travels I had the pleasure of a couple of different hire cars, all of them Japanese. 2x Mitsubishi Outlanders and a Mazda CX-5.
Various ergonomic issues with all of them but the key thing for me was the Mazda - the chrome trim round the drivers door air vent reflected in the drivers door mirror, making it difficult to see properly behind the car.
The same car also had issues with rain on both mirrors, the wind/airflow didn't clear them. Both my BMW and my Wife's MINI have mirrors which clear quite well in rainy conditions.
On recent travels I had the pleasure of a couple of different hire cars, all of them Japanese. 2x Mitsubishi Outlanders and a Mazda CX-5.
Various ergonomic issues with all of them but the key thing for me was the Mazda - the chrome trim round the drivers door air vent reflected in the drivers door mirror, making it difficult to see properly behind the car.
The same car also had issues with rain on both mirrors, the wind/airflow didn't clear them. Both my BMW and my Wife's MINI have mirrors which clear quite well in rainy conditions.
Lester H said:
Some fascinating remarks about seats .Almost all Saab threads praise their seats, and the same with traditional Volvos (no, they are not small cars). Then you have elderly Renaults and Citroens with big, soft armchairs as also in Ford Scorpios hardly for rallying, but just so comfy. All of these did well with seats, so what went wrong?
You can't pretend to be Ayrton Senna, Colin McRae or good at driving if you don't have huge side bolsters hugging your middle-aged spread in as you drive to your supermarket of choice.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff