Council fraud and other mismanagement

[Getragdogleg]

I happened upon this rather informative video that lays out the absolute state of Council finances and the utter grubby state of it all.

I knew about the Ice-save scandal from a while ago because my local council lost a lot of money, I knew about Thurrock but I had no idea so many other local authorities were so inept. nor did I realise how much was lost to the likes of Capita et al.

I mean, I had my suspicions but this lays it out quite clearly.

If anyone knows how to embed this video in a post can they let me know please ?

https://youtu.be/M7FUD-ecHFE?si=NJX1zf8CEv0qrHKv

[Terminator X]

TX.

[tegwin]

Depressing watching but nothing new

Its a circular stshow I don't know how we fix.


How anyone ever thought outsourcing would be cheaper I just don't understand - if another organization can do the same tasks AND extract profit then you were clearly doing some fundamentally wrong in the first place!

[Tango13]

Getragdogleg said:

I happened upon this rather informative video that lays out the absolute state of Council finances and the utter grubby state of it all.

I knew about the Ice-save scandal from a while ago because my local council lost a lot of money, I knew about Thurrock but I had no idea so many other local authorities were so inept. nor did I realise how much was lost to the likes of Capita et al.

I mean, I had my suspicions but this lays it out quite clearly.

If anyone knows how to embed this video in a post can they let me know please ?

You need to top and tail the link with [youtube] link stuff [/youtube]

[jules_s]

tegwin said:

How anyone ever thought outsourcing would be cheaper I just don't understand - if another organization can do the same tasks AND extract profit then you were clearly doing some fundamentally wrong in the first place!

It's more about offsetting risks these days

[Getragdogleg]

Thank you for the help with formatting.

Locally the amount of new kit that turns up in the council yard that never gets used is depressing. sits and rots and then gets scrapped of "goes missing" and then some new stuff arrives.

[bloomen]

tegwin said:

Its a circular stshow I don't know how we fix

90% of every country's problems could be fixed with one thing - respect for public money.

That's from the people who spend it and plenty of the people it's spent on.

Since that would need a fundamental rewiring of human nature, it can't be fixed.

[JoshSm]

If people were held personally and criminally liable for wasting other people's money they might be more careful with it.

As it is a bunch of idiots can blow stupid amounts on stupid things and the consequences for them are basically zero.

This isn't a new thing though, councils have burned many millions on stupid 'investments' and partnerships for decades. Property deals are usually a good one. And they'll go ahead with the stupidity regardless of whoever is telling them it's a stupid money incinerating idea.

[Countdown]

tegwin said:

How anyone ever thought outsourcing would be cheaper I just don't understand - if another organization can do the same tasks AND extract profit then you were clearly doing some fundamentally wrong in the first place!

1. Government pressure to outsource for political reasons. When I worked in Local/central government there was a push to outsource services under the guise of "best Value" or Compulsory Competitive Tendering. Seemed a good idea on the face of it but the odds were twisted in favour of private sector companies. What was the icing on the cake was when the contracts were finalised there were so many loopholes for the winning bidder to extract additional profits because of incredibly badly worded contracts.

2. Theoretically it's possible to outsource and procure services cheaper as the private sector doesn't have to pay DB pension costs. However what governments forget is that the main desire is to maximise profits and minimise costs (which almost always means that services provided are usually below what was agreed in the contract, knowing full well that the govt isnt going to spend time and money enforcing every crossed I and dotted T). And then there's just out and out fraud in billing the government.

[Countdown]

JoshSm said:

If people were held personally and criminally liable for wasting other people's money they might be more careful with it.

Pay peanuts, get monkeys.

[Getragdogleg]

At what point do we arrive at the conclusion that the social contract is broken ?

My road has many holes, blocked drains and now fallen trees, the verges are never cut, the gutters and drains blocked and water running from broken drainage pipes, that's just the last half mile to my house.

fly tipping is an epidemic because its so hard and expensive to get rid of simple waste and there are few consequences for the less scrupulous.

Drivers exist to pay for infringements and the amount of new lower speed limits accompanied by new camera van laybys is noticeable, bus lane cameras and other traps are set and seem to be a source of income for councils that they increasingly rely on so need to keep on devising ways to trick drivers.

The amount we pay out is not value for money in any way shape or form.

And here we see the chancers and huge companies are making off with the money.

Whats the point exactly ?

[jmn]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&amp...

Here's an example from a Council that thought it would be a good idea to set up it's own building company.

[Slow.Patrol]

tegwin said:

How anyone ever thought outsourcing would be cheaper I just don't understand - if another organization can do the same tasks AND extract profit then you were clearly doing some fundamentally wrong in the first place!

I spent a few years as a local government officer.

I headed up a small department. I made 15% savings in my first year. Cutting staff hours and making some redundant by outsourcing.

Council employees are expensive. They get massive sickness allowances and some know how to play the game. Go off six for six months, come back for a month and then go sick again. Plus the cost of pension contributions is huge. It worked out cheaper to employ a cleaning company on reduced hours. I had council cleaners employed every day to clean a facility that was not being used every day. Plenty complained about the waste, but they were too scared of being taken to court by a disgruntled employee.

Sometimes outsourcing works, sometimes it is jobs for the boys.

I often wonder why there isn't a small army of retired people like me who have a bit of business sense who are prepared to give up a few hours to check the books. Councils get their accounts audited, but they rarely look at the finer detail. I would happily give up a few days a month looking at invoices.

[Countdown]

Slow.Patrol said:

Go off six for six months, come back for a month and then go sick again.

The sickness allowance is worked out over a rolling 12 months period. In your example if they went off sick again they'd be on half-pay.

Slow.Patrol said:

I often wonder why there isn't a small army of retired people like me who have a bit of business sense who are prepared to give up a few hours to check the books. Councils get their accounts audited, but they rarely look at the finer detail. I would happily give up a few days a month looking at invoices.

There are plenty of opportunities to do this. You can either apply to join your Council Audit committee (although you'd need to demonstrate that you have the relevant skills such as being a qualified accountant) OR as part of the annual audit, under the Local Audit and Accountability Act you are allowed to inspect invoices, expense claims and any related documents.

[Getragdogleg]

Countdown said:

There are plenty of opportunities to do this. You can either apply to join your Council Audit committee (although you'd need to demonstrate that you have the relevant skills such as being a qualified accountant) OR as part of the annual audit, under the Local Audit and Accountability Act you are allowed to inspect invoices, expense claims and any related documents.

So in Countdown world we are supposed to be checking them and we are obviously not doing it.


So its run like st and its our fault ? Sounds about right.

[Countdown]

Getragdogleg said:

Countdown said:

There are plenty of opportunities to do this. You can either apply to join your Council Audit committee (although you'd need to demonstrate that you have the relevant skills such as being a qualified accountant) OR as part of the annual audit, under the Local Audit and Accountability Act you are allowed to inspect invoices, expense claims and any related documents.

So in Countdown world we are supposed to be checking them and we are obviously not doing it.


So its run like st and its our fault ? Sounds about right.

That response was to Slow Patrol suggesting it's something he (and a small army of retired people) might enjoy doing. I was just pointing out that they CAN if they want to do so.

Whether or not it's "your" fault depends on whether you think Councillors and local residents have any obligation to hold the Council accountable. If you think they should then the only way to do this is to

1, attend council meetings
2. join the various committees / sub-committees as co-opted members
3. review the minutes of the meetings and what decisions have been made
4. Look at the Annual report, look at what your money is being spent on (all invoices over £500 should be published by the Council on that thing called the internet).

Let's be honest - it takes time and effort and very few people CBA.

[DeadShed]

Getragdogleg said:

So in Countdown world we are supposed to be checking them and we are obviously not doing it.


So its run like st and its our fault ? Sounds about right.

The transparency is there. The mechanisms to hold your council to account are there. If you don t use the, yes, it s your fault.

The reality is with councils that most of them are efficient and carful with money. People are well aware they are one FoI request away from everything they say and do being very public.

The biggest issue is constantly being asked to deliver more with less. That and people expecting them to be perfect, i.e. complaint about failed projects, when projects fail all the time in the private sector.

From what I have watched of that video it seems they are all examples of councils doing their best but making just the kind of errors private companies do or being pushed by political ideals (private good, public bad!)

Edited by DeadShed on Sunday 18th January 17:33

[oyster]

Those here saying how inefficient the public sector is, have clearly only ever worked in SMEs in the private sector.

[tele_lover]

Misuse of public funds should mean the person who approved it has to pay it from their wages.

[Sport_Turismo_GTS]

DeadShed said:

The transparency is there. The mechanisms to hold your council to account are there. If you don t use the, yes, it s your fault.

The reality is with councils that most of them are efficient and carful with money. People are well aware they are one FoI request away from everything they say and do being very public.

There are many examples of the opposite.

DeadShed said:

The biggest issue is constantly being asked to deliver more with less. That and people expecting them to be perfect, i.e. complaint about failed projects, when projects fail all the time in the private sector.

From what I have watched of that video it seems they are all examples of councils doing their best but making just the kind of errors private companies do or being pushed by political ideals (private good, public bad!)

Council taxes (and other council charges) continue to go up above inflation, year after year and yet service deliver is reducing all the time. Look at the productivity stats in the public sector v private sector.

Edited by Sport_Turismo_GTS on Sunday 18th January 20:01