A fair travel policy for both employees and employer?
Discussion
Previously I worked for a company where I travelled extensively and was fortunate that they had a great travel policy.
Paid from the moment I left my front door till the moment I reached my destination accommodation.
Automatic business class travel if travelling for 8 hours plus.
All overtime hours paid at x1.5 or x2 of hourly rate.
Disruption allowance of £25 paid for each and every day spent away from home.
If out of the he country for long periods and not working weekends, Saturday and Sunday would be paid at normal hourly rate for 8 hours each day.
Company credit card with healthy limit.
No major restrictions on daily food allowance as long as you didn’t take the mickey.
Fast forward to my current company.
And it’s the complete opposite.
Regardless of time travelled, time spent out of the country etc … we get paid our normal 35 hours just like we would if we were working back in the office.
Economy travel only, regardless of distance and time spent travelling.
Ohhh with the added benefit of having to pay for everything yourself and claiming it back once you return to work.
So the benefits for working away are absolutely zilch, infact we are worse off.
Following a recent trip where myself and a couple of other more senior members spent a huge amount of time travelling and working over the course of 2 weeks there is going to be a push back on the current pathetic travel policy.
I 100% do not expect anything like what I received at my previous company, but what would a fair ask be from the company?
For example my last trip, 2 weeks ago was …
Days 1 and 2 - Travel to China
Days 3, 4, 5, - Spend full day onsite each day with supplier (8 to 10 hours each day)
Day 5 - 4 hour train journey to next destination.
Day 6. & 7 (Weekend) - non work days.
Day 8 - Full day on site with different supplier.
Day 9 - Full day on site (8 hours) travel direct from supplier to airport to fly home.
Day 9 - 10 - Travel home. 40+ hours arriving at home at approx. 5.30 pm.
Day 11 - in the office for 8am for normal working day.
Paid from the moment I left my front door till the moment I reached my destination accommodation.
Automatic business class travel if travelling for 8 hours plus.
All overtime hours paid at x1.5 or x2 of hourly rate.
Disruption allowance of £25 paid for each and every day spent away from home.
If out of the he country for long periods and not working weekends, Saturday and Sunday would be paid at normal hourly rate for 8 hours each day.
Company credit card with healthy limit.
No major restrictions on daily food allowance as long as you didn’t take the mickey.
Fast forward to my current company.
And it’s the complete opposite.
Regardless of time travelled, time spent out of the country etc … we get paid our normal 35 hours just like we would if we were working back in the office.
Economy travel only, regardless of distance and time spent travelling.
Ohhh with the added benefit of having to pay for everything yourself and claiming it back once you return to work.
So the benefits for working away are absolutely zilch, infact we are worse off.
Following a recent trip where myself and a couple of other more senior members spent a huge amount of time travelling and working over the course of 2 weeks there is going to be a push back on the current pathetic travel policy.
I 100% do not expect anything like what I received at my previous company, but what would a fair ask be from the company?
For example my last trip, 2 weeks ago was …
Days 1 and 2 - Travel to China
Days 3, 4, 5, - Spend full day onsite each day with supplier (8 to 10 hours each day)
Day 5 - 4 hour train journey to next destination.
Day 6. & 7 (Weekend) - non work days.
Day 8 - Full day on site with different supplier.
Day 9 - Full day on site (8 hours) travel direct from supplier to airport to fly home.
Day 9 - 10 - Travel home. 40+ hours arriving at home at approx. 5.30 pm.
Day 11 - in the office for 8am for normal working day.
I d expect :
- travel out / back to be on week days (or a days holiday given in lieu of days travelling)
- flights, parking, hotels, mileage, meals to daily cap, all transportation to be covered
- if you agree to be there over a weekend to get hotels paid and daily food allowance.
- a defined hotel budget per night and a daily food allowance.
Should be a t&e policy consistent for all employees. For me business class was a rarity, trains were standard class, hotels were £200 a night tops, food was circa £60 per day. All paid and claimed back.
- travel out / back to be on week days (or a days holiday given in lieu of days travelling)
- flights, parking, hotels, mileage, meals to daily cap, all transportation to be covered
- if you agree to be there over a weekend to get hotels paid and daily food allowance.
- a defined hotel budget per night and a daily food allowance.
Should be a t&e policy consistent for all employees. For me business class was a rarity, trains were standard class, hotels were £200 a night tops, food was circa £60 per day. All paid and claimed back.
Edited by bennno on Sunday 1st February 18:54
Certainly needs to be a balance between the 2 policies.
Travelling for work, even within the UK is f
king hard work and really wears you out. The current policy will just burn people out and they'll leave.
My mate flies to the US every 2 weeks and it's economy only and he's expected to work as soon as he lands. Flies out on a Sunday and gets back on a Friday night every other week.
Travelling for work, even within the UK is f
king hard work and really wears you out. The current policy will just burn people out and they'll leave.My mate flies to the US every 2 weeks and it's economy only and he's expected to work as soon as he lands. Flies out on a Sunday and gets back on a Friday night every other week.
First question is whether you have discussed this with your manager or not, and how much flexibility do they have? For example, could they say "sure, take a day or two off in lieu" after a trip where you have been travelling on weekends, without upsetting others/more seniors/jobsworths?
If you have a reasonable manager, that would be my first starting point.
Quick observation: paying everything yourself and claiming it back can be lucrative if you get yourself a cashback credit card or BA Amex or something - then all your business travel earns you something; I would expect that expenses would be repaid within 1-2 weeks max of you submitting an expense claim, so well within the time for paying off the bill in full.
If you are looking for 'what is reasonable', my thoughts are:
- generally, you should not be expected to travel outside of normal working days (i.e. no weekend travel)
- however, if such travel is needed, you are given a day in lieu for any weekend day on which any travel occurs - even if it's a 6.30am arrival and home by 8am on a Saturday morning
- travel class: 8 hours + is at least premium economy. My take on this is it depends what they expect you to do around the travel - e.g., if it's a daytime flight to North America - if I'm in economy, then I'm watching films, relaxing, and not doing any work.
Weekends away is a tricky one: some people think that it is great if the company is paying them for a 2-day trip to somewhere they'd never otherwise visit (but would like to), others value time at home very highly. In any discussion, I would suggest being honest if you fall into the first category. If you are closer to the first category, I'd be saying something like "My working hours don't include weekends; you'd potentially have to fly me home and back out again to avoid that - trips that don't include a saturday night are likely to be more expensive, so as a reasonable compromise ....".
In discussions, think about i) what did you sign up to? - did you know there was going to be a lot of travel involved, and take the job without even asking to see the policy (maybe your base pay is high to compensate?), ii) what business reasons are going to resonate: if your presence if valuable enough to have you fly to China, presumably it's worthwhile you arriving in a fit state to actually do business. If you can't sleep in economy, but are being put on overnight flights to Asia, and expected to work on arrival, then that's a health and safety issue that they need to consider.
If you have a reasonable manager, that would be my first starting point.
Quick observation: paying everything yourself and claiming it back can be lucrative if you get yourself a cashback credit card or BA Amex or something - then all your business travel earns you something; I would expect that expenses would be repaid within 1-2 weeks max of you submitting an expense claim, so well within the time for paying off the bill in full.
If you are looking for 'what is reasonable', my thoughts are:
- generally, you should not be expected to travel outside of normal working days (i.e. no weekend travel)
- however, if such travel is needed, you are given a day in lieu for any weekend day on which any travel occurs - even if it's a 6.30am arrival and home by 8am on a Saturday morning
- travel class: 8 hours + is at least premium economy. My take on this is it depends what they expect you to do around the travel - e.g., if it's a daytime flight to North America - if I'm in economy, then I'm watching films, relaxing, and not doing any work.
Weekends away is a tricky one: some people think that it is great if the company is paying them for a 2-day trip to somewhere they'd never otherwise visit (but would like to), others value time at home very highly. In any discussion, I would suggest being honest if you fall into the first category. If you are closer to the first category, I'd be saying something like "My working hours don't include weekends; you'd potentially have to fly me home and back out again to avoid that - trips that don't include a saturday night are likely to be more expensive, so as a reasonable compromise ....".
In discussions, think about i) what did you sign up to? - did you know there was going to be a lot of travel involved, and take the job without even asking to see the policy (maybe your base pay is high to compensate?), ii) what business reasons are going to resonate: if your presence if valuable enough to have you fly to China, presumably it's worthwhile you arriving in a fit state to actually do business. If you can't sleep in economy, but are being put on overnight flights to Asia, and expected to work on arrival, then that's a health and safety issue that they need to consider.
Just to compare it to ours
Travel time is your own if it's not within normal working hours. I know it's a cliche but senior managers are expected to work whatever hours the job requires. It's the view of the Company that we pay you enough to put up with the extra hours requirements. If you are overseas on a Saturday or Sunday its basically seen as being on holiday while the company pays for your hotel (rather than a reason for being paid extra)
Travel is economy unless the journey is over 5 hours OR unless you have a meeting immediately on arrival.
If somebody is regularly incurring out of pocket expenses then we give them a company credit card (£2k per month limit, no alcohol)
Meal allowances are £15 breakfast, £20 lunch, £30 evening meal OR £50 a day, whichever is lower.
HJG said:
Your new experience sounds completely normal to be honest.
Same. I did it for 30yrs for three companies and it was always like that, save that I never had any strict limits of spending, but was always expected to keep it reasonable / cheap. My trips were usually back from the US, so I'd be arriving home in the morning and wouldn't go into work that day - although I did have one boss who commented on that. If he was on the trip he'd go straight to the office.
I had a mate who worked for one of the big oil companies and he had the kind of arrangements the OP had originally - he used to love going away.
airsafari87 said:
For example my last trip, 2 weeks ago was
Days 1 and 2 - Travel to China
Days 3, 4, 5, - Spend full day onsite each day with supplier (8 to 10 hours each day)
Day 5 - 4 hour train journey to next destination.
Day 6. & 7 (Weekend) - non work days.
Day 8 - Full day on site with different supplier.
Day 9 - Full day on site (8 hours) travel direct from supplier to airport to fly home.
Day 9 - 10 - Travel home. 40+ hours arriving at home at approx. 5.30 pm.
Day 11 - in the office for 8am for normal working day.
Tell (not ask) that you'll be working from home on day 11. Also depends on your position/salary, I'd be looking for 250k upwards if that's a regular routine.Days 1 and 2 - Travel to China
Days 3, 4, 5, - Spend full day onsite each day with supplier (8 to 10 hours each day)
Day 5 - 4 hour train journey to next destination.
Day 6. & 7 (Weekend) - non work days.
Day 8 - Full day on site with different supplier.
Day 9 - Full day on site (8 hours) travel direct from supplier to airport to fly home.
Day 9 - 10 - Travel home. 40+ hours arriving at home at approx. 5.30 pm.
Day 11 - in the office for 8am for normal working day.
Countdown said:
Just to compare it to ours
Travel time is your own if it's not within normal working hours. I know it's a cliche but senior managers are expected to work whatever hours the job requires. It's the view of the Company that we pay you enough to put up with the extra hours requirements. If you are overseas on a Saturday or Sunday its basically seen as being on holiday while the company pays for your hotel (rather than a reason for being paid extra)
Travel is economy unless the journey is over 5 hours OR unless you have a meeting immediately on arrival.
If somebody is regularly incurring out of pocket expenses then we give them a company credit card (£2k per month limit, no alcohol)
Meal allowances are £15 breakfast, £20 lunch, £30 evening meal OR £50 a day, whichever is lower.
I would be concerned about the culture of a company that took that attitude. There’s a difference between “we pay you a lot so you might not get home before your kids bedtime some days” and “we pay you a lot so you can put up with not seeing your kids at all for a weekend”.Travel time is your own if it's not within normal working hours. I know it's a cliche but senior managers are expected to work whatever hours the job requires. It's the view of the Company that we pay you enough to put up with the extra hours requirements. If you are overseas on a Saturday or Sunday its basically seen as being on holiday while the company pays for your hotel (rather than a reason for being paid extra)
Travel is economy unless the journey is over 5 hours OR unless you have a meeting immediately on arrival.
If somebody is regularly incurring out of pocket expenses then we give them a company credit card (£2k per month limit, no alcohol)
Meal allowances are £15 breakfast, £20 lunch, £30 evening meal OR £50 a day, whichever is lower.
Would you offer flights home and back for an employee who had weekend childcare responsibilities?
As a general rule, the longer the policy, the more ridiculous the situation gets. It should be “we pay you a lot because we trust you to be able to do your job , and also not to take the piss when traveling”. Fixed per diems for example are ridiculous when you consider the different cost of living in different countries (and even within countries).
It gets even more ridiculous when you consider the opportunity costs of managers dealing with checking or managing compliance with these rules.
onetwothreefour said:
First question is whether you have discussed this with your manager or not, and how much flexibility do they have? For example, could they say "sure, take a day or two off in lieu" after a trip where you have been travelling on weekends, without upsetting others/more seniors/jobsworths?
If you have a reasonable manager, that would be my first starting point.
Quick observation: paying everything yourself and claiming it back can be lucrative if you get yourself a cashback credit card or BA Amex or something - then all your business travel earns you something; I would expect that expenses would be repaid within 1-2 weeks max of you submitting an expense claim, so well within the time for paying off the bill in full.
If you are looking for 'what is reasonable', my thoughts are:
- generally, you should not be expected to travel outside of normal working days (i.e. no weekend travel)
- however, if such travel is needed, you are given a day in lieu for any weekend day on which any travel occurs - even if it's a 6.30am arrival and home by 8am on a Saturday morning
- travel class: 8 hours + is at least premium economy. My take on this is it depends what they expect you to do around the travel - e.g., if it's a daytime flight to North America - if I'm in economy, then I'm watching films, relaxing, and not doing any work.
Weekends away is a tricky one: some people think that it is great if the company is paying them for a 2-day trip to somewhere they'd never otherwise visit (but would like to), others value time at home very highly. In any discussion, I would suggest being honest if you fall into the first category. If you are closer to the first category, I'd be saying something like "My working hours don't include weekends; you'd potentially have to fly me home and back out again to avoid that - trips that don't include a saturday night are likely to be more expensive, so as a reasonable compromise ....".
In discussions, think about i) what did you sign up to? - did you know there was going to be a lot of travel involved, and take the job without even asking to see the policy (maybe your base pay is high to compensate?), ii) what business reasons are going to resonate: if your presence if valuable enough to have you fly to China, presumably it's worthwhile you arriving in a fit state to actually do business. If you can't sleep in economy, but are being put on overnight flights to Asia, and expected to work on arrival, then that's a health and safety issue that they need to consider.
Thanks for the detailed reply, and your views are broadly aligned with my own.If you have a reasonable manager, that would be my first starting point.
Quick observation: paying everything yourself and claiming it back can be lucrative if you get yourself a cashback credit card or BA Amex or something - then all your business travel earns you something; I would expect that expenses would be repaid within 1-2 weeks max of you submitting an expense claim, so well within the time for paying off the bill in full.
If you are looking for 'what is reasonable', my thoughts are:
- generally, you should not be expected to travel outside of normal working days (i.e. no weekend travel)
- however, if such travel is needed, you are given a day in lieu for any weekend day on which any travel occurs - even if it's a 6.30am arrival and home by 8am on a Saturday morning
- travel class: 8 hours + is at least premium economy. My take on this is it depends what they expect you to do around the travel - e.g., if it's a daytime flight to North America - if I'm in economy, then I'm watching films, relaxing, and not doing any work.
Weekends away is a tricky one: some people think that it is great if the company is paying them for a 2-day trip to somewhere they'd never otherwise visit (but would like to), others value time at home very highly. In any discussion, I would suggest being honest if you fall into the first category. If you are closer to the first category, I'd be saying something like "My working hours don't include weekends; you'd potentially have to fly me home and back out again to avoid that - trips that don't include a saturday night are likely to be more expensive, so as a reasonable compromise ....".
In discussions, think about i) what did you sign up to? - did you know there was going to be a lot of travel involved, and take the job without even asking to see the policy (maybe your base pay is high to compensate?), ii) what business reasons are going to resonate: if your presence if valuable enough to have you fly to China, presumably it's worthwhile you arriving in a fit state to actually do business. If you can't sleep in economy, but are being put on overnight flights to Asia, and expected to work on arrival, then that's a health and safety issue that they need to consider.
To answer your first question.
My manager is reasonable and approachable and speaking with them isn’t a problem. But the change would need to come from the top for consistency rather than on an individual basis. One person being allowed to do one thing while another isn’t allowed to do the same would cause issues.
You touched on a point there which is one of the biggest hurdles for implementing change.
A lot of the other employees who are now travelling haven’t done so before, so see it as a status thing and are happy to do whatever with whatever sacrifice is required as long as the get to make boastful social media posts along the lines of ‘I’ve been to X Y or Zx’ and post ‘Ahhhh long, hard day with the client, time for a pint in X, Y or Z as a reward’
That’s not for me, I value my time at home with my own family and I guess is what is at the crux of my gripe.
I learned a long time ago that travelling to these different places on your own is ok for a while, but being in the nice places and seeing the nice things means nothing if they aren’t a shared experience with family.
If I am getting paid for working 35 hours a week in the office 10 mins from home and being in my own bed each night versus getting paid the exact same money while cumulatively working 80+ hours (I include the travel as working) then I know where I’d rather be.
onetwothreefour said:
I would be concerned about the culture of a company that took that attitude. There s a difference between we pay you a lot so you might not get home before your kids bedtime some days and we pay you a lot so you can put up with not seeing your kids at all for a weekend .
Would you offer flights home and back for an employee who had weekend childcare responsibilities?
As a general rule, the longer the policy, the more ridiculous the situation gets. It should be we pay you a lot because we trust you to be able to do your job , and also not to take the piss when traveling . Fixed per diems for example are ridiculous when you consider the different cost of living in different countries (and even within countries).
It gets even more ridiculous when you consider the opportunity costs of managers dealing with checking or managing compliance with these rules.
The amount of travel somebody is likely to be doing is made clear in the job description. Why would you take a job when you know you don’t want to or can’t do one of the requirements of the job? Would you offer flights home and back for an employee who had weekend childcare responsibilities?
As a general rule, the longer the policy, the more ridiculous the situation gets. It should be we pay you a lot because we trust you to be able to do your job , and also not to take the piss when traveling . Fixed per diems for example are ridiculous when you consider the different cost of living in different countries (and even within countries).
It gets even more ridiculous when you consider the opportunity costs of managers dealing with checking or managing compliance with these rules.
Ps compliance isn’t an issue.
airsafari87 said:
You touched on a point there which is one of the biggest hurdles for implementing change.
A lot of the other employees who are now travelling haven t done so before, so see it as a status thing and are happy to do whatever with whatever sacrifice is required as long as the get to make boastful social media posts along the lines of I ve been to X Y or Zx and post Ahhhh long, hard day with the client, time for a pint in X, Y or Z as a reward
Can't you send someone in your place then? A lot of the other employees who are now travelling haven t done so before, so see it as a status thing and are happy to do whatever with whatever sacrifice is required as long as the get to make boastful social media posts along the lines of I ve been to X Y or Zx and post Ahhhh long, hard day with the client, time for a pint in X, Y or Z as a reward
Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff