Cars as an investment and not just an A-B (Elise etc)
Discussion
I've always owned cars that have been primarily to support me getting to/from work so for the most part I've been exposed to the usual depreciation cycle and it's never really allowed to me own something purely as a toy.
I may be in the lucky position shortly were I can fund outright something like an A110 or an Elise with the irony being that when I can purchase purely with with my heart, my head wants a big say in it!
This isn't a What Car? thread, rather what approach to take buying a car that is almost exclusively for enjoyment but also respecting the money I have available.
My brain accepts that my A-B transport will lose money but it's less accepting of a singular purchase losing a huge chunk.
I may be in the lucky position shortly were I can fund outright something like an A110 or an Elise with the irony being that when I can purchase purely with with my heart, my head wants a big say in it!
This isn't a What Car? thread, rather what approach to take buying a car that is almost exclusively for enjoyment but also respecting the money I have available.
My brain accepts that my A-B transport will lose money but it's less accepting of a singular purchase losing a huge chunk.
I’m sure I’ll get flamed for this because it’s not a 6 figure supercar.
I bought a GR86 2 years ago right at the end of Dec 23 when they all had to be sold by. I managed to get £1500 discount on it as Toyota needed to sell by the cut off date.
There are only 1500 in the country so a fairly rare car to find so thought the residuals would be pretty good for the foreseeable.
Fast forward 2 years and nice low mileage examples are still selling for very close to what they were new. The fact you get a 10 year warranty with them if you service with Toyota probably helps with that too.
Superb car, does exact what I want it to and doesn’t break the bank being sat in the garage for nice drives out either.
Before this I had an Elise 220 Cup which I owned for 5 years from a year old. When I sold it I actually got £3k more than I paid for it.
Nice when you can own and enjoy a car and it doesn’t cost you a packet to do so.
I bought a GR86 2 years ago right at the end of Dec 23 when they all had to be sold by. I managed to get £1500 discount on it as Toyota needed to sell by the cut off date.
There are only 1500 in the country so a fairly rare car to find so thought the residuals would be pretty good for the foreseeable.
Fast forward 2 years and nice low mileage examples are still selling for very close to what they were new. The fact you get a 10 year warranty with them if you service with Toyota probably helps with that too.
Superb car, does exact what I want it to and doesn’t break the bank being sat in the garage for nice drives out either.
Before this I had an Elise 220 Cup which I owned for 5 years from a year old. When I sold it I actually got £3k more than I paid for it.
Nice when you can own and enjoy a car and it doesn’t cost you a packet to do so.
Ironically my current car is a GR86 (as well as a small dog van) but I bought in the second tranche so didn't quite buy them when they were epically good value, well done for getting the discount!
I've actually posted before how the GR86 wasn't quite doing it for me but in reality, it was the 50 daily miles that was removing the magic for me. Buying a small dog van was actually a brilliant move for me as I've now two vehicles designed for exactly what they should be used for and I now truly love the GR.
However, my hankering for an A110 or Elise is never far away and I'm now in a position to be considering one.
I've actually posted before how the GR86 wasn't quite doing it for me but in reality, it was the 50 daily miles that was removing the magic for me. Buying a small dog van was actually a brilliant move for me as I've now two vehicles designed for exactly what they should be used for and I now truly love the GR.
However, my hankering for an A110 or Elise is never far away and I'm now in a position to be considering one.
TheFungle said:
This isn't a What Car? thread, rather what approach to take buying a car that is almost exclusively for enjoyment but also respecting the money I have available.
I've got a pet theory about this. I'll type it out here, maybe it's interesting to you OP.Context is that I'm 44 years old and only really started paying attention to cars a few years ago. Before that it was just A to B transport. Partly that's because I've moved to the countryside from London, so I'm doing a lot more miles and on roads I have more chance of enjoying driving along.
Anyway what I have realised is that in buying a 'fun car' I could just set a budget and buy a fairly expensive one, and that would be that. Let's say a car that costs £40k and by the time maintenance etc has been caught up it all in costs £50k...then maybe I sell it a couple of years later for the £40k again, so it's costing me £5-10k per year accounting for tax, fuel, insurance etc.
I'm sure that would be fun, but what I would miss out on is the journey of levelling up from a lesser car to a better one. So what I've done instead is bought a much cheaper 'fun car' for £5k, and then I'm going to see what I enjoy about that for a while, then maybe level up to a more expensive one, maybe not. Don't know.
My point is that looking at people driving about in supercars on youtube, instagram etc doesn't bear any relation to my own personal experience. I've basically never driven a 'fun car' before, so put me in the most billy basic one out there and I'm probably going to really enjoy it. So to my mind I'm going to start like that, and then go from there.
Edited by tiger roll on Sunday 8th February 11:02
It's about the cheapest miles you can get - an Elise is a pretty good shout I think. They'll never really be worth super big money, apart from maybe a few museum pieces. But compared to many things they're pretty easy to live with, great fun, and you will probably get 'similar' but not exact money should you come to sell.
I'm not entirely sure there's ever a way to make the maths completely line up. If it's something you really enjoy, even if you lose a few quid you'll be able to make great memories with it.
I'm not entirely sure there's ever a way to make the maths completely line up. If it's something you really enjoy, even if you lose a few quid you'll be able to make great memories with it.
OP, what is your idea of a toy car?
Is it for pure driving pleasure? A convertible sports car for sunny day cruising? Something quirky to feel different than the masses?
A classic car, no tax, MOT, low insurance may help your head decide. But you may not care for getting your hands oily and getting to grips with mechanicals if you've always taken cars with black plastic under the bonnet to a garage for servicing.
That's not to say there aren't plenty of garages set up for classic owners, but they can then be more expensive to maintain once in the "classic specialist" arena.
As for investment, the only car I've ever made money on, accidentally, was a 1975 Midget we had in the late 80's.
Looking for a fun car myself, short list is 60's Lotus Elan, 50's Frog Eye Sprite or TR3A. But I'm mid-60s and relish getting stuck in to the dirty bits.
One thing... I have a 981 Cayman (keeper) but have noticed the almost as pretty 981 Boxsters getting down to low 20's. Great drivers cars but fairly pricey to maintain, especially if something goes wrong.
Is it for pure driving pleasure? A convertible sports car for sunny day cruising? Something quirky to feel different than the masses?
A classic car, no tax, MOT, low insurance may help your head decide. But you may not care for getting your hands oily and getting to grips with mechanicals if you've always taken cars with black plastic under the bonnet to a garage for servicing.
That's not to say there aren't plenty of garages set up for classic owners, but they can then be more expensive to maintain once in the "classic specialist" arena.
As for investment, the only car I've ever made money on, accidentally, was a 1975 Midget we had in the late 80's.
Looking for a fun car myself, short list is 60's Lotus Elan, 50's Frog Eye Sprite or TR3A. But I'm mid-60s and relish getting stuck in to the dirty bits.
One thing... I have a 981 Cayman (keeper) but have noticed the almost as pretty 981 Boxsters getting down to low 20's. Great drivers cars but fairly pricey to maintain, especially if something goes wrong.
Edited by DJMC on Sunday 8th February 16:29
TheFungle said:
Billy_Whizzzz said:
No car will be an investment.
Cheers.And you could also find yourself a new career with the investment.
I suspect that most (attainable) modern cars won't be an investment. There'll be some which will depreciate at a lower rate or require less maintenance over the years, but other than that, I suspect it's a flat no.
OK then so let's go down the classic route - on the face of it, that's ideal: you buy (for example) a 1969 Fastback Mustang which maintains value, indeed even increases in value a little, however, that route is also fraught with compromises:
- maintenance costs, both mechanical and bodywise (if you can't/don't want to DiY)
- potential reliability issues
- running costs can be rather eye-watering, especially if you are used to your car returning 50mpg
- lack of modern steering/braking (fine in a fun car - but an everyday?)
- lack of modern safety aids (whilst we may bemoan the in-car nanny systems, do we really want to be without: ABS; crumple zones; airbags)
- spare parts availability
OK then so let's go down the classic route - on the face of it, that's ideal: you buy (for example) a 1969 Fastback Mustang which maintains value, indeed even increases in value a little, however, that route is also fraught with compromises:
- maintenance costs, both mechanical and bodywise (if you can't/don't want to DiY)
- potential reliability issues
- running costs can be rather eye-watering, especially if you are used to your car returning 50mpg
- lack of modern steering/braking (fine in a fun car - but an everyday?)
- lack of modern safety aids (whilst we may bemoan the in-car nanny systems, do we really want to be without: ABS; crumple zones; airbags)
- spare parts availability
wisbech said:
TheFungle said:
Billy_Whizzzz said:
No car will be an investment.
Cheers.I lost £4000 in 2 years on an Elise 111R, I did buy when the market was at its highest but I was still gutted as I thought I would get most of my money back when I sold it.
Struggled to sell it too so you do need to take care what you buy if you don`t plan on keeping it long.
As said not many cars will be an investment these days, just buy carefully and enjoy.
Struggled to sell it too so you do need to take care what you buy if you don`t plan on keeping it long.
As said not many cars will be an investment these days, just buy carefully and enjoy.
DJMC said:
OP, what is your idea of a toy car?
Is it for pure driving pleasure? A convertible sports car for sunny day cruising? Something quirky to feel different than the masses?
A classic car, no tax, MOT, low insurance may help your head decide. But you may not care for getting your hands oily and getting to grips with mechanicals if you've always taken cars with black plastic under the bonnet to a garage for servicing.
That's not to say there aren't plenty of garages set up for classic owners, but they can then be more expensive to maintain once in the "classic specialist" arena.
As for investment, the only car I've ever made money on, accidentally, was a 1975 Midget we had in the late 80's.
Looking for a fun car myself, short list is 60's Lotus Elan, 50's Frog Eye Sprite or TR3A. But I'm mid-60s and relish getting stuck in to the dirty bits.
One thing... I have a 981 Cayman (keeper) but have noticed the almost as pretty 981 Boxsters getting down to low 20's. Great drivers cars but fairly pricey to maintain, especially if something goes wrong.
A fun car for me is driver focussed rather than the general ownership experience which is why I'm drawn to small and lightweight. Although I've never owned a car with a spectacular V8, I'm certain enough that it's not where I'd sink my money into. Is it for pure driving pleasure? A convertible sports car for sunny day cruising? Something quirky to feel different than the masses?
A classic car, no tax, MOT, low insurance may help your head decide. But you may not care for getting your hands oily and getting to grips with mechanicals if you've always taken cars with black plastic under the bonnet to a garage for servicing.
That's not to say there aren't plenty of garages set up for classic owners, but they can then be more expensive to maintain once in the "classic specialist" arena.
As for investment, the only car I've ever made money on, accidentally, was a 1975 Midget we had in the late 80's.
Looking for a fun car myself, short list is 60's Lotus Elan, 50's Frog Eye Sprite or TR3A. But I'm mid-60s and relish getting stuck in to the dirty bits.
One thing... I have a 981 Cayman (keeper) but have noticed the almost as pretty 981 Boxsters getting down to low 20's. Great drivers cars but fairly pricey to maintain, especially if something goes wrong.
I dunno, perhaps £5k on a well sorted MR2 is the way to go.
With fun cars, I reckon it's something like the values go down for 10 years, stay fairly flat for 10 years, and then potentially start rising. (Timings vary based on numbers in the market and price points).
So buy a car at 15-20 years old, keep it for 5-10 years and you have a chance of selling for more than you paid. Now, you'll likely have spent more on keeping an old sports car going than your profit, but you get to buy in for a low capital investment, enjoy a great car and get some of your maintenance costs back when you sell.
Cars I've sold for more than I paid were a 1996 Mazda RX-7 (bought 2012 for £4500, sold 2022 for £21500) and a 2007 Nissan 350Z (bought 2019 for £7500, sold 2020 for £8750). So both examples of buying in the second decade.
Neither outweighed the maintenance, and I've lost loads on other cars, so not claiming to be an investment guru here! Just some ideas to consider.
A car is a poor investment because it needs maintenance during ownership. If its simply stored, it will still need some kind of ongoing maintenance and/or a properly heated and damp-free storage facility, to avoid corrosion etc. So your first challenge is ensuring any gain in value will more than offset the maintenance requirement.
Add in actually using it in the interim, and that maintenance becomes more demanding and unpredictable.
Then factor in that cars typically DON'T hold their value, indeed they depreciate quite heavily (unlike, property, whisky, jewellery, Tesco Super Saver bank account, etc).
Oh, and they're not a liquid asset - it takes some effort to realise the value at point of sale.
The only way to do it is to buy low and sell high, but nobody can predict the future (market).
Add in actually using it in the interim, and that maintenance becomes more demanding and unpredictable.
Then factor in that cars typically DON'T hold their value, indeed they depreciate quite heavily (unlike, property, whisky, jewellery, Tesco Super Saver bank account, etc).
Oh, and they're not a liquid asset - it takes some effort to realise the value at point of sale.
The only way to do it is to buy low and sell high, but nobody can predict the future (market).
TheFungle said:
A fun car for me is driver focussed rather than the general ownership experience which is why I'm drawn to small and lightweight. Although I've never owned a car with a spectacular V8, I'm certain enough that it's not where I'd sink my money into.
I dunno, perhaps £5k on a well sorted MR2 is the way to go.
Only car I ever made a profit on was an mr2 roadster. Bought for 2500 and sold 15 months later for 3000. That was a few years ago and a nice one is now £5k as you say. Great car, shouldn't be too expensive to run and it's unlikely to lose money with little use and proper maintenance. I dunno, perhaps £5k on a well sorted MR2 is the way to go.
On a similar level a Z4 6 cylinder with manual box could work. 2.5 or 3.0si.
Not really investments but you can have a toy without losing much money.
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