Letter of Administration 5 years after death
Discussion
• Wife died unexpectedly in January 2021
• The house was in both our names as we were joint tenants. House was sold.
• I had no trouble in closing her bank account etc. I just had to supply copies of the death certificate in most cases. Can't remember exact cash sums but sub £2000.
• Looked into probate and from my best understanding, it wasn't required for a small estate
• In Dec 2024 I was told by her sister that their dad (who died 4 months before my wife) had, years ago, transferred part ownership of a student house to them; 48% each and 4% to their mother.
• They planned to sell it to use the money to help care for the mum who has early stage dementia. As I was her spouse, her share becomes mine. It's a bitter sweet situation and I would rather no inheritance and have her still alive, but at least I can make sure our daughter has a great start in her future adult life.
• House is only now going into auction. Auction house have sent me paperwork to sign and asked for a copy of the Grant of Probate. That doesn't exist, but in reading up on it just now, for an estate that includes property I probably need a Letter of Administration.
I'm assuming I now have to apply for a Letter of Administration to deal with this hitherto unknown part of her estate.
Any advice or guidance welcome. Thank you.
• The house was in both our names as we were joint tenants. House was sold.
• I had no trouble in closing her bank account etc. I just had to supply copies of the death certificate in most cases. Can't remember exact cash sums but sub £2000.
• Looked into probate and from my best understanding, it wasn't required for a small estate
• In Dec 2024 I was told by her sister that their dad (who died 4 months before my wife) had, years ago, transferred part ownership of a student house to them; 48% each and 4% to their mother.
• They planned to sell it to use the money to help care for the mum who has early stage dementia. As I was her spouse, her share becomes mine. It's a bitter sweet situation and I would rather no inheritance and have her still alive, but at least I can make sure our daughter has a great start in her future adult life.
• House is only now going into auction. Auction house have sent me paperwork to sign and asked for a copy of the Grant of Probate. That doesn't exist, but in reading up on it just now, for an estate that includes property I probably need a Letter of Administration.
I'm assuming I now have to apply for a Letter of Administration to deal with this hitherto unknown part of her estate.
Any advice or guidance welcome. Thank you.
Simpo Two said:
I thought they were for cases of intestacy. No Will/s?
There was no will.She'd been fighting cancer for a few years, but the new medication caused terrible side-effects and caused a very rapid decline between Christmas and the New Year. We were messaging over the New Year, a couple of days later I had a call from the hospital saying they were now looking at palliative care. 3 days later, gone.
A will was something she probably would have done in the proceeding years, but she was denied that opportunity.
Edited by username_checksout on Friday 27th February 21:46
Sorry for your loss.
Your wife had no will but, as you were married, I think her estate just passes to you without any IHT liability unless contested.
Plus you retain her IHT allowances, so there would still be full IHT relief on your estate.
For your share of the student house, you should ask to see your wife's father's will to check what it says, and ask a solicitor to send a letter to the auction people confirming the epitome of title (proof of beneficial ownership).
This should be possible to do from looking at the Land Registry title document for the house and the will.
IANAL and probably have no idea what I'm talking about.
Your wife had no will but, as you were married, I think her estate just passes to you without any IHT liability unless contested.
Plus you retain her IHT allowances, so there would still be full IHT relief on your estate.
For your share of the student house, you should ask to see your wife's father's will to check what it says, and ask a solicitor to send a letter to the auction people confirming the epitome of title (proof of beneficial ownership).
This should be possible to do from looking at the Land Registry title document for the house and the will.
IANAL and probably have no idea what I'm talking about.
OP, given the situation at the time (i.e. joint tenants, some other savings, and no knowledge of the student house), it's very unlikely that you would've needed to get probate then.
Obviously the student house revelation now complicates things slightly. You don't mention which part of the country you're in, or the likely value of the student house, so I'd suggest seeing how the intestacy rules would've been applied in your case. This is a useful guide to determine that: https://www.gov.uk/inherits-someone-dies-without-w...
Unfortunately, you might find that the auctioneers refuse to list the property until Letters of Administration have been granted.
Obviously the student house revelation now complicates things slightly. You don't mention which part of the country you're in, or the likely value of the student house, so I'd suggest seeing how the intestacy rules would've been applied in your case. This is a useful guide to determine that: https://www.gov.uk/inherits-someone-dies-without-w...
Unfortunately, you might find that the auctioneers refuse to list the property until Letters of Administration have been granted.
C69 said:
Unfortunately, you might find that the auctioneers refuse to list the property until Letters of Administration have been granted.
Would it be any different selling through an EA? I once needed to sell a house that had belonged to a deceased relative and I don't recall them asking for Probate (though that was 25 years ago)A little more info has come to light after receiving a call from my ex sister in law tonight.
In light of the info posted above by OIC, I sent that on to them.
She called and said her dad's will was done in such a way to try and protect as much of his estate as possible for the benefit of his wife (who is still alive and kicking, albeit with now more noticeably increasing dementia, sadly). As far as she can tell, the property (which is in Norwich) isn't named specifically. The reason being - we assume - is that he had already made my wife, her sister and his wife deed holders with a respective 49% and 2% share each.
So the house wasn't left to them in his will as they already owned it. She's checking Land Registry to see when that took place as CGT will need to be calculated from the value at the time that ownership was handed over. She thinks it was in the mid 2000s.
House was up with agents from April last year and has sold twice, both times the buyers pulled out late into the process. First time due to the buyer's mum interfering (they were a student moving up from London to study at the UEA) and the second time, more recently, no reason was given.
It was on the market for £230,000 and the last sale price was agreed at £215,000 as she just wants rid of it.
In light of the info posted above by OIC, I sent that on to them.
She called and said her dad's will was done in such a way to try and protect as much of his estate as possible for the benefit of his wife (who is still alive and kicking, albeit with now more noticeably increasing dementia, sadly). As far as she can tell, the property (which is in Norwich) isn't named specifically. The reason being - we assume - is that he had already made my wife, her sister and his wife deed holders with a respective 49% and 2% share each.
So the house wasn't left to them in his will as they already owned it. She's checking Land Registry to see when that took place as CGT will need to be calculated from the value at the time that ownership was handed over. She thinks it was in the mid 2000s.
House was up with agents from April last year and has sold twice, both times the buyers pulled out late into the process. First time due to the buyer's mum interfering (they were a student moving up from London to study at the UEA) and the second time, more recently, no reason was given.
It was on the market for £230,000 and the last sale price was agreed at £215,000 as she just wants rid of it.
username_checksout said:
House was up with agents from April last year and has sold twice, both times the buyers pulled out late into the process.
I guess it comes down to what's the least aggro - either going through EAs who don't seem to require Letters of Admin, or an auction house that do. I would choose the former for simplicity and extra return, even if it takes longer.Simpo Two said:
username_checksout said:
House was up with agents from April last year and has sold twice, both times the buyers pulled out late into the process.
I guess it comes down to what's the least aggro - either going through EAs who don't seem to require Letters of Admin, or an auction house that do. I would choose the former for simplicity and extra return, even if it takes longer.OIC said:
Sorry for your loss.
Your wife had no will but, as you were married, I think her estate just passes to you without any IHT liability unless contested.
This depends on how much the estate was worth and if there are any kids. If there are kids and the estate's worth more than £322k, some of it goes to the kids.Your wife had no will but, as you were married, I think her estate just passes to you without any IHT liability unless contested.
OIC said:
Plus you retain her IHT allowances, so there would still be full IHT relief on your estate.
I'm not entirely sure on this point, but I think whether or not this is correct will depend on whether any of the estate goes to the kids.OIC said:
For your share of the student house, you should ask to see your wife's father's will to check what it says, and ask a solicitor to send a letter to the auction people confirming the epitome of title (proof of beneficial ownership).
Her father's will has nothing to do with anything, by the sounds of it, because he gifted the house before he died. An epitome of title is essentially an index to a bundle of title deeds used to prove title to unregistered land (which this will not be if it was transferred in the 2000's) so that's a complete red herring.
OIC said:
This should be possible to do from looking at the Land Registry title document for the house and the will.
None of this will be possible by looking at either of those things. OIC said:
IANAL
That's fairly obvious, I"m afraid!OIC said:
and probably have no idea what I'm talking about.
I'm afraid it's fairly clear that you don't (about these subjects).I don't mean my comments above as an attack on you or to be rude, but I saw from a later post the OP has read and then acted on them, so he's probably been pointed quite firmly the wrong direction by them.
OP, you're dealing with a six figure asset here and circumstances that are not particularly simple. You (or other members of the family) are also trying to sell said six figure asset. Go and see a solicitor. You want a firm that deals with both property and private client work (i.e. wills and probate) because there might be aspects of both those areas involved in this.
On a positive note, though, assuming the house wasn't registered in your wife's sole name, it's quite likely that you won't need to obtain letters of administration for the sale to proceed. If there's one or more person on the title who is still alive then they will be the current legal owner(s) of the house and should be able to conduct the sale without any grant(s) being needed.
Edited by bladebloke on Sunday 1st March 13:02
bladebloke said:
OP, you're dealing with a six figure asset here and circumstances that are not particularly simple. Go and see a solicitor. You want a firm that deals with both property and private client work (i.e. wills and probate) because there might be aspects of both those areas involved in this.
^^ This. The house ain't getting sold to anyone unless and until the technical ownership is resolved. Any buyer will need to be 100% sure they're paying their money to the right person and actually getting ownership of the property. bladebloke said:
OIC said:
Sorry for your loss.
Your wife had no will but, as you were married, I think her estate just passes to you without any IHT liability unless contested.
This depends on how much the estate was worth and if there are any kids. If there are kids and the estate's worth more than £322k, some of it goes to the kids.Your wife had no will but, as you were married, I think her estate just passes to you without any IHT liability unless contested.
OIC said:
Plus you retain her IHT allowances, so there would still be full IHT relief on your estate.
I'm not entirely sure on this point, but I think whether or not this is correct will depend on whether any of the estate goes to the kids.OIC said:
For your share of the student house, you should ask to see your wife's father's will to check what it says, and ask a solicitor to send a letter to the auction people confirming the epitome of title (proof of beneficial ownership).
Her father's will has nothing to do with anything, by the sounds of it, because he gifted the house before he died. An epitome of title is essentially an index to a bundle of title deeds used to prove title to unregistered land (which this will not be if it was transferred in the 2000's) so that's a complete red herring.
OIC said:
This should be possible to do from looking at the Land Registry title document for the house and the will.
None of this will be possible by looking at either of those things. OIC said:
IANAL
That's fairly obvious, I"m afraid!OIC said:
and probably have no idea what I'm talking about.
I'm afraid it's fairly clear that you don't (about these subjects).I don't mean my comments above as an attack on you or to be rude, but I saw from a later post the OP has read and then acted on them, so he's probably been pointed quite firmly the wrong direction by them.
OP, you're dealing with a six figure asset here and circumstances that are not particularly simple. You (or other members of the family) are also trying to sell said six figure asset. Go and see a solicitor. You want a firm that deals with both property and private client work (i.e. wills and probate) because there might be aspects of both those areas involved in this.
On a positive note, though, assuming the house wasn't registered in your wife's sole name, it's quite likely that you won't need to obtain letters of administration for the sale to proceed. If there's one or more person on the title who is still alive then they will be the current legal owner(s) of the house and should be able to conduct the sale without any grant(s) being needed.
Edited by bladebloke on Sunday 1st March 13:02
Can you elaborate on some of the estate passing to the kids for a married couple where the estate is worth more than £322 (thousand).
I'm happy to start a new thread in the finance bit if that's more appropriate.
OIC said:
Thanks for correcting - genuinely.
Can you elaborate on some of the estate passing to the kids for a married couple where the estate is worth more than £322 (thousand).
I'm happy to start a new thread in the finance bit if that's more appropriate.
Can you elaborate on some of the estate passing to the kids for a married couple where the estate is worth more than £322 (thousand).
I'm happy to start a new thread in the finance bit if that's more appropriate.
Sure. Where someone dies without a valid will, their estate passes under the rules of intestacy. There's a summary here: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/wills-and-probate/con...
Thanks all, I do appreciate the information and advice.
Sorry if the Will aspect caused some confusion; I initially thought ownership was transferred on his death but it transpires that wasn't the case after all.
Value of the estate; I've been looking into this and seen the figure of £322k. Does that total include half the value of the house we owned, or is it everything else not including our family home (which was sold)?
There are children; a 14 year old daughter, and also two surviving co-owners; wife's sister and her mother. It was the sister's idea to sell in order to raise money to help care for the mother. I was told that my wife owned half the house and in the next breath, 'We're going to sell it'. I wasn't consulted beforehand and I wouldn't have had any objections anyway.
If it all goes to plan it'll be a nice lump to help my daughter have a great start in her adult life.
ETA: I have found a firm in Norwich who specialise in this area so I'll be speaking to them asap this week, armed with salient points from all the replies, so thanks once again.
Sorry if the Will aspect caused some confusion; I initially thought ownership was transferred on his death but it transpires that wasn't the case after all.
Value of the estate; I've been looking into this and seen the figure of £322k. Does that total include half the value of the house we owned, or is it everything else not including our family home (which was sold)?
There are children; a 14 year old daughter, and also two surviving co-owners; wife's sister and her mother. It was the sister's idea to sell in order to raise money to help care for the mother. I was told that my wife owned half the house and in the next breath, 'We're going to sell it'. I wasn't consulted beforehand and I wouldn't have had any objections anyway.
If it all goes to plan it'll be a nice lump to help my daughter have a great start in her adult life.
ETA: I have found a firm in Norwich who specialise in this area so I'll be speaking to them asap this week, armed with salient points from all the replies, so thanks once again.
username_checksout said:
Am I to take it that's the value of personal property, savings etc. not including the home they lived in, ownership of which would go to the spouse as a joint tenant?
Yep, I'm in Norfolk.
For a JT property, the share owned by the deceased automatically passes to the surviving owner (the 'right of survivorship'). Consequently, intestacy rules don't apply to it. Yep, I'm in Norfolk.
Similarly, if there had been a will, then the deceased's share of a JT property ordinarily wouldn't be included in the estate when calculating distributions to beneficiaries of the will. It would be included for IHT purposes, though (but this is not relevant in your late wife's case as all of her assets passed to you).
C69 said:
For a JT property, the share owned by the deceased automatically passes to the surviving owner (the 'right of survivorship'). Consequently, intestacy rules don't apply to it.
Similarly, if there had been a will, then the deceased's share of a JT property ordinarily wouldn't be included in the estate when calculating distributions to beneficiaries of the will. It would be included for IHT purposes, though (but this is not relevant in your late wife's case as all of her assets passed to you).
Is it worth checking how the investment property was deeded also, because if the wife was a JT on that, then when she passed, her share would have gone to the other tenants in the same way. I don't think this is very likely because I believe that JT must have equal ownership, and it sounds like 4%/48%/48% would not meet this, so they would be Tenants in Common instead.Similarly, if there had been a will, then the deceased's share of a JT property ordinarily wouldn't be included in the estate when calculating distributions to beneficiaries of the will. It would be included for IHT purposes, though (but this is not relevant in your late wife's case as all of her assets passed to you).
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