Potential subsidence
Discussion
We're in the process of buying a house, ours is sold, offer accepted on the new one.
The challenge is that in one corner there is cracks in the render and inside in the plaster. It has tell tale diagonal cracks around windows, which are stick on opening and closing.
It's not yet confirmed, but I'm pretty sure the structural engineer will tell us the combo of large willow tree and clay heavy soil has resulted in shrinkage and ongoing movement of the foundation.
Assuming they agree to remove the free and underpin that corner, what I'm trying to work out is how much of a stigma the house will carry, how the value will be affected, and whether ongoing insurance costs will be a challenge?
It would be a forever home for us, but I don't want to buy with my heart and cause issues for my children when they come to sell it down the line.
The challenge is that in one corner there is cracks in the render and inside in the plaster. It has tell tale diagonal cracks around windows, which are stick on opening and closing.
It's not yet confirmed, but I'm pretty sure the structural engineer will tell us the combo of large willow tree and clay heavy soil has resulted in shrinkage and ongoing movement of the foundation.
Assuming they agree to remove the free and underpin that corner, what I'm trying to work out is how much of a stigma the house will carry, how the value will be affected, and whether ongoing insurance costs will be a challenge?
It would be a forever home for us, but I don't want to buy with my heart and cause issues for my children when they come to sell it down the line.
The exact scenario happened to my house.
Multiple trees removed, no worsening over the last 6 months or so.
Not all subsidence requires under pinning, the dry summer last year caused it, due to the house being old and built on clay.
Evidence of it happening previously, neighbours also confirmed it has happened to theirs at various points in the past, in typical farmer fashion they did nothing and the house still stands.
IIRC ours was a 2-3/10 in terms of seriousness, insurance company are happy to proceed with the cosmetic repairs post tree removal and no worsening of the cracks, etc.
Our insurance doubled, I believe we would have to mention it if selling.
No big deal tbh, if the house is modern I’d be more concerned, ours is 100+.
Multiple trees removed, no worsening over the last 6 months or so.
Not all subsidence requires under pinning, the dry summer last year caused it, due to the house being old and built on clay.
Evidence of it happening previously, neighbours also confirmed it has happened to theirs at various points in the past, in typical farmer fashion they did nothing and the house still stands.
IIRC ours was a 2-3/10 in terms of seriousness, insurance company are happy to proceed with the cosmetic repairs post tree removal and no worsening of the cracks, etc.
Our insurance doubled, I believe we would have to mention it if selling.
No big deal tbh, if the house is modern I’d be more concerned, ours is 100+.
Having bought a house with previous subsidence which wasn't picked up on any surveys (it was in lock down so we were only able to view it once), I can relate to your woes!
It all depends on your overall outlook
This house for us was a project and we knew there would be issues (Although as is always the case, not quite this many issues!), it was also a house we viewed as a long term stay. We'll move out when we're older and can't get up the stairs, but it wasn't a quick flip situation. So, despite uncovering a lot of issue, we're not that fussed. Always have the incling in the back of your head during a wet winter or dry summer.. is that crack getting bigger?!
But our place is 200 years old and built on clay with very little foundations. It moves due to ground conditions, trees, bushes...
So it's no wonder there had been subsidence in the past.
In terms of how bad, it was rectified (our solicitor eventually found a certificate of structural conformity but only after we'd moved in...!
), but we've gone back to brick in many rooms, one in particular had crack you could get your fist in!
Insurance can be a pain, but speak with a broker if you can.
We used Acorn insurance and they talked us through some options and we have buildings & contents insurance for around £400 per annum. If the subsidence were to resurface then there is a pretty hefty (£2k I believe) excess, but at least it is covered.
It all depends on your overall outlook
This house for us was a project and we knew there would be issues (Although as is always the case, not quite this many issues!), it was also a house we viewed as a long term stay. We'll move out when we're older and can't get up the stairs, but it wasn't a quick flip situation. So, despite uncovering a lot of issue, we're not that fussed. Always have the incling in the back of your head during a wet winter or dry summer.. is that crack getting bigger?!
But our place is 200 years old and built on clay with very little foundations. It moves due to ground conditions, trees, bushes...
So it's no wonder there had been subsidence in the past.
In terms of how bad, it was rectified (our solicitor eventually found a certificate of structural conformity but only after we'd moved in...!
), but we've gone back to brick in many rooms, one in particular had crack you could get your fist in! Insurance can be a pain, but speak with a broker if you can.
We used Acorn insurance and they talked us through some options and we have buildings & contents insurance for around £400 per annum. If the subsidence were to resurface then there is a pretty hefty (£2k I believe) excess, but at least it is covered.
Thanks!
Our plan is similar - live in it for 20 years then convert a barn when we are too old to get up stairs. At that point we'd probably sell the main house.
I suspect it's very similar to yours. The willow tree is huge - several times the height of the house about 15m from the house corner. I think it's part of the original property, so couple of hundred years old.
The widest crack is inside where the plaster is probably 10mm wide.
The family want a quick sale so it was priced well, though not really taking into account this issue. We suspect they will choose to remove the tree, and if needed, underpin at their own cost.
We were planning to buy with a mortgage which may be incompatible with their need to move and the potential risk until we have confirmed movement has stopped, through whatever means required.
Our plan is similar - live in it for 20 years then convert a barn when we are too old to get up stairs. At that point we'd probably sell the main house.
I suspect it's very similar to yours. The willow tree is huge - several times the height of the house about 15m from the house corner. I think it's part of the original property, so couple of hundred years old.
The widest crack is inside where the plaster is probably 10mm wide.
The family want a quick sale so it was priced well, though not really taking into account this issue. We suspect they will choose to remove the tree, and if needed, underpin at their own cost.
We were planning to buy with a mortgage which may be incompatible with their need to move and the potential risk until we have confirmed movement has stopped, through whatever means required.
That's the best case. However you would imagine they would need to remove the tree and monitor for a period of time to confirm it did the trick?
I'm also not sure what's the most risky - underpinning or not. It could be belt and braces whereas without it and with another scorching dry summer, it could move again?
I'm waiting for an update, but believe the likely next step is a structural engineer being engaged by the vendor so we know what we are dealing with.
I'm also not sure what's the most risky - underpinning or not. It could be belt and braces whereas without it and with another scorching dry summer, it could move again?
I'm waiting for an update, but believe the likely next step is a structural engineer being engaged by the vendor so we know what we are dealing with.
One problem with underpinning, if it's done only locally, is differential movement - one part of the property being firmly founded and the rest remaining on clay within the 'shrinkable' zone.
There's also the 'stigma' in that you will need to declare on your insurance and this does tend to be reflected in premiums. On balance I would prefer a property with a known history of movement, and an informed intervention, but not having been underpinned unless it was absolutely necessary
I'd suggest you do really need some geotechnical/arboriculturalist expertise to make an informed judgment
There's also the 'stigma' in that you will need to declare on your insurance and this does tend to be reflected in premiums. On balance I would prefer a property with a known history of movement, and an informed intervention, but not having been underpinned unless it was absolutely necessary
I'd suggest you do really need some geotechnical/arboriculturalist expertise to make an informed judgment
_DJ_ said:
That's the best case. However you would imagine they would need to remove the tree and monitor for a period of time to confirm it did the trick?
I'm also not sure what's the most risky - underpinning or not. It could be belt and braces whereas without it and with another scorching dry summer, it could move again?
I'm waiting for an update, but believe the likely next step is a structural engineer being engaged by the vendor so we know what we are dealing with.
Top tipI'm also not sure what's the most risky - underpinning or not. It could be belt and braces whereas without it and with another scorching dry summer, it could move again?
I'm waiting for an update, but believe the likely next step is a structural engineer being engaged by the vendor so we know what we are dealing with.
If you are really serious about buying it, get your own structural survey done professionally
Don't rely on the vendor getting someone a.) competent b.) reliable c.) trustworthy
Ask me how I know....
A good RICS surveyor may well cost you £2k+ for a thorough in depth report & analysis, but in the long run this could be money spent very wisely...
If you choose to trust the survey supplied by the vendor, you have no recourse if you can show that the survey is incorrect or missed stuff.
Most surveys cover their asses incredibly well if you do find problems further down the line, but if you have paid for that service, you've got a tiny bit more weight behind you if anything should come out in the wash.
Thanks, that's good advice.
We would certainly do that, but we hoped we'd understand the general direction of travel from their assessment first.
Hopefully the vendor would make a decision on how they'd pay for any work (directly or using insurance) and we would then understand broadly how long the process is likely to take.
We would certainly do that, but we hoped we'd understand the general direction of travel from their assessment first.
Hopefully the vendor would make a decision on how they'd pay for any work (directly or using insurance) and we would then understand broadly how long the process is likely to take.
Lotobear said:
There's also the 'stigma' in that you will need to declare on your insurance and this does tend to be reflected in premiums. On balance I would prefer a property with a known history of movement, and an informed intervention, but not having been underpinned unless it was absolutely necessary
When looking yesterday you'd need to declare anyway. They ask if there has ever been any movement, whether it is ongoing or historical and whether the building has been underpinned.The quotes I got reduced when you specified historical and underpinned as opposed to just historical.
Presumably they couldn't just remove the tree and patch up the render/plaster - they'd also need to declare on their vendor forms when selling, as would we if be bought and later sold?
Haddock82 said:
A good RICS surveyor may well cost you £2k+ for a thorough in depth report & analysis, but in the long run this could be money spent very wisely...
Who will then say that you need a SE report and he'll probably want a trial pit to start with. In these cases I'd skip the RICS report for now as it could be money wasted.Yes, as in the original post, you need a structural engineer.
FWIW if the house is your forever home I wouldn't be too worried, structural stuff, once quantified, is likely to cost less than replacement windows.
I would also suggest, if it comes to it, that underpinning is a basic building practice that commands a huge premium, but can be done at a fraction of the price under the guidance of the SE.
FWIW if the house is your forever home I wouldn't be too worried, structural stuff, once quantified, is likely to cost less than replacement windows.
I would also suggest, if it comes to it, that underpinning is a basic building practice that commands a huge premium, but can be done at a fraction of the price under the guidance of the SE.
Underpinning can now also be achieved via injectable concrete that swells up in certain ratios, as opposed to excavation and block working.
Clay is subject to heave / shrinkage in times of drought / deluge and quite large holes can close back up if their own accord.
Worth contacting a few of the under pinning firms that exist to get some ideas on remedy & costs to put your mind at ease…
Clay is subject to heave / shrinkage in times of drought / deluge and quite large holes can close back up if their own accord.
Worth contacting a few of the under pinning firms that exist to get some ideas on remedy & costs to put your mind at ease…
TA14 said:
Haddock82 said:
A good RICS surveyor may well cost you £2k+ for a thorough in depth report & analysis, but in the long run this could be money spent very wisely...
Who will then say that you need a SE report and he'll probably want a trial pit to start with. In these cases I'd skip the RICS report for now as it could be money wasted.Lotobear said:
TA14 said:
Haddock82 said:
A good RICS surveyor may well cost you £2k+ for a thorough in depth report & analysis, but in the long run this could be money spent very wisely...
Who will then say that you need a SE report and he'll probably want a trial pit to start with. In these cases I'd skip the RICS report for now as it could be money wasted.A structural engineer report is what you need in the long run.
Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff