Brewin Dolphin - a good solution?
Discussion
My father died recently leaving my elderly mother a portfolio of investments via BestInvest worth a substantial amount. He was a keen investor over many years but she has no knowledge or interest in it whatsoever, so we're trying to find a safe way for this to be managed to continue to provide an income for her.
Brewin Dolphin was recommended and we have had a chat with a local representative who seemed very helpful, not just in terms of taking on and managing the investments, but also good strategies with regards to IHT (which is potentially going to hit hard).
She's looking to me for advice, and the honest truth is, I don't know. Reviews appear to be good, the fees didn't seem too bad to me (1.5%) but I'm very wary of giving poor advice.
I just wondered what people thought, does this sound like a sensible solution?
Brewin Dolphin was recommended and we have had a chat with a local representative who seemed very helpful, not just in terms of taking on and managing the investments, but also good strategies with regards to IHT (which is potentially going to hit hard).
She's looking to me for advice, and the honest truth is, I don't know. Reviews appear to be good, the fees didn't seem too bad to me (1.5%) but I'm very wary of giving poor advice.
I just wondered what people thought, does this sound like a sensible solution?
I looked at them 10+ years ago when I lacked the knowledge to run things myself. They are DFMs (discretionary fund managers) possibly with an IFA service tacked on too. All I can say is that when I was with a DFM/IFA combo (not them) they were squirreling up to 4% out of my savings, mostly in churning (frequent and not really necessary trading). When you think that the average low/medium risk portfolio might average 5-6% a year, you can see that's two thirds of your gains gone. You take the risk, they take none.
The best way forward is to take an interest in things yourself, and the best way to learn enough to make decently informed decisions, I would say, is to post here. So well done and hopefully others will be able to suggest ways forward that are halfway between managing it all yourself, and just handing several thousands to a middleman every year for not much work on their part.
Words to look out for in subsequent replies: platform - S&S ISA - global tracker - invest now...
The best way forward is to take an interest in things yourself, and the best way to learn enough to make decently informed decisions, I would say, is to post here. So well done and hopefully others will be able to suggest ways forward that are halfway between managing it all yourself, and just handing several thousands to a middleman every year for not much work on their part.
Words to look out for in subsequent replies: platform - S&S ISA - global tracker - invest now...
My sister is with them. Inherited the relationship and has stuck with it. They seem to get occasional theatre tickets, rounds of golf etc. I dread to think how much that's costing them in fees. I've always suspected the answer is, "a lot". Massage the client's ego and they might not notice the cost..
Panamax said:
My sister is with them. Inherited the relationship and has stuck with it. They seem to get occasional theatre tickets, rounds of golf etc. I dread to think how much that's costing them in fees. I've always suspected the answer is, "a lot". Massage the client's ego and they might not notice the cost..
1.5% Edited by Ari on Thursday 19th March 17:02
Simpo Two said:
I looked at them 10+ years ago when I lacked the knowledge to run things myself. They are DFMs (discretionary fund managers) possibly with an IFA service tacked on too. All I can say is that when I was with a DFM/IFA combo (not them) they were squirreling up to 4% out of my savings, mostly in churning (frequent and not really necessary trading). When you think that the average low/medium risk portfolio might average 5-6% a year, you can see that's two thirds of your gains gone. You take the risk, they take none.
The best way forward is to take an interest in things yourself, and the best way to learn enough to make decently informed decisions, I would say, is to post here. So well done and hopefully others will be able to suggest ways forward that are halfway between managing it all yourself, and just handing several thousands to a middleman every year for not much work on their part.
Words to look out for in subsequent replies: platform - S&S ISA - global tracker - invest now...
That is interesting about the trading fees, thank you. I'll check in to that. The best way forward is to take an interest in things yourself, and the best way to learn enough to make decently informed decisions, I would say, is to post here. So well done and hopefully others will be able to suggest ways forward that are halfway between managing it all yourself, and just handing several thousands to a middleman every year for not much work on their part.
Words to look out for in subsequent replies: platform - S&S ISA - global tracker - invest now...
I don't disagree with you, but the problem is, it's not my money. I can't start trading on behalf of my mother, and if I did try, and got it wrong, the fallout from the wider family would be enormous. So it really is a case of trying to find the best way to pass it on so that it can be responsibly managed, and if that comes with a fee, so be it, it's never going to be for free.
So hence the question, on the basis that we're happy for there to be a cost attached, and it would be wrong to try and manage her money for her directly, is this a good solution?
Ari said:
Simpo Two said:
I looked at them 10+ years ago when I lacked the knowledge to run things myself. They are DFMs (discretionary fund managers) possibly with an IFA service tacked on too. All I can say is that when I was with a DFM/IFA combo (not them) they were squirreling up to 4% out of my savings, mostly in churning (frequent and not really necessary trading). When you think that the average low/medium risk portfolio might average 5-6% a year, you can see that's two thirds of your gains gone. You take the risk, they take none.
The best way forward is to take an interest in things yourself, and the best way to learn enough to make decently informed decisions, I would say, is to post here. So well done and hopefully others will be able to suggest ways forward that are halfway between managing it all yourself, and just handing several thousands to a middleman every year for not much work on their part.
Words to look out for in subsequent replies: platform - S&S ISA - global tracker - invest now...
That is interesting about the trading fees, thank you. I'll check in to that. The best way forward is to take an interest in things yourself, and the best way to learn enough to make decently informed decisions, I would say, is to post here. So well done and hopefully others will be able to suggest ways forward that are halfway between managing it all yourself, and just handing several thousands to a middleman every year for not much work on their part.
Words to look out for in subsequent replies: platform - S&S ISA - global tracker - invest now...
I don't disagree with you, but the problem is, it's not my money. I can't start trading on behalf of my mother, and if I did try, and got it wrong, the fallout from the wider family would be enormous. So it really is a case of trying to find the best way to pass it on so that it can be responsibly managed, and if that comes with a fee, so be it, it's never going to be for free.
So hence the question, on the basis that we're happy for there to be a cost attached, and it would be wrong to try and manage her money for her directly, is this a good solution?
My mrs used ( note past tense ) different IFA , B-D as DFM hands off for her, fully advise, tax planning , IHT half in offahore turst etc etc No pension involved just GIA and ISA 1.32% average total anual cost over last 2 years.
She is now with same IFA but QUILTER . about same cost . 2 years in much better
Not my money not my choice( I 100% self manage but that is 10x less pot ) , I am encouraged to look in fro the side /attend meetings .
I echo @simpo ... I got that churning feeling
She is now with same IFA but QUILTER . about same cost . 2 years in much better
Not my money not my choice( I 100% self manage but that is 10x less pot ) , I am encouraged to look in fro the side /attend meetings .
I echo @simpo ... I got that churning feeling
SunsetZed said:
I would have thought agreeing a global tracker with the wider family would be a better approach but appreciate that even that is more open to fallout.
Sometimes decisions have to be made for family political reasons as much as financial ones... (My little pile is mostly in trackers).
Ari said:
Sometimes decisions have to be made for family political reasons as much as financial ones...
(My little pile is mostly in trackers).
I suspect, purely from the investment side, that your pile of trackers will do better than BD. That's because you lose only (perhaps) 0.1% whereas BD will lose 2-4% ie possibly half the growth. However BD will offer lots of other advice which you may feel is useful/worth it.(My little pile is mostly in trackers).
I think the best thing is get together with all affected parties - ie your mother and siblings - and see what the appetite is.
Ari said:
Sometimes decisions have to be made for family political reasons as much as financial ones...
(My little pile is mostly in trackers).
Without knowing the amount 1.5% sounds expensive.(My little pile is mostly in trackers).
Take the family politics point though as I probably wouldn't want to risk ever being accused of being "that guy" either.
Simpo Two said:
I looked at them 10+ years ago when I lacked the knowledge to run things myself. They are DFMs (discretionary fund managers) possibly with an IFA service tacked on too. All I can say is that when I was with a DFM/IFA combo (not them) they were squirreling up to 4% out of my savings, mostly in churning (frequent and not really necessary trading). When you think that the average low/medium risk portfolio might average 5-6% a year, you can see that's two thirds of your gains gone. You take the risk, they take none.
The best way forward is to take an interest in things yourself, and the best way to learn enough to make decently informed decisions, I would say, is to post here. So well done and hopefully others will be able to suggest ways forward that are halfway between managing it all yourself, and just handing several thousands to a middleman every year for not much work on their part.
Words to look out for in subsequent replies: platform - S&S ISA - global tracker - invest now...
We have our SIPPs and S&S ISAs with Brewin Dolphin as a DFM (but not directly, through another IFA) and don't pay anything when they change investments, other than stamp duty on UK purchases.The best way forward is to take an interest in things yourself, and the best way to learn enough to make decently informed decisions, I would say, is to post here. So well done and hopefully others will be able to suggest ways forward that are halfway between managing it all yourself, and just handing several thousands to a middleman every year for not much work on their part.
Words to look out for in subsequent replies: platform - S&S ISA - global tracker - invest now...
BD have more than their DFM service, so it might not be that that's been suggested.
Did you read the OP? He's looking for someone to take care of his mother's investments. Having someone to take care of it all if I croak before my wife was the main reason for getting someone else to look after our money.
I'd consider separating the two aspects.
Firstly, determine what are the best products / structures to achieve your aims (i.e. income for your mother and IHT planning). An IFA will be able to help with this. Also bear in mind that IFAs will have access to certain products that retail investors don't (e.g. onshore / offshore bonds).
Then, once you know what's required, you'll be in a better position to determine whether or not ongoing fund management is required for all / some / none of your resultant holdings.
I've no experience of Brewin Dolphin, but 1.5% sounds like a lot. It depends what you're getting for that, of course, but I'd think about it in absolute £ terms as well. I'd also make sure that that's the total amount of fees you'd pay. There might be other costs at the product level (e.g. fund manager fees etc.).
Firstly, determine what are the best products / structures to achieve your aims (i.e. income for your mother and IHT planning). An IFA will be able to help with this. Also bear in mind that IFAs will have access to certain products that retail investors don't (e.g. onshore / offshore bonds).
Then, once you know what's required, you'll be in a better position to determine whether or not ongoing fund management is required for all / some / none of your resultant holdings.
I've no experience of Brewin Dolphin, but 1.5% sounds like a lot. It depends what you're getting for that, of course, but I'd think about it in absolute £ terms as well. I'd also make sure that that's the total amount of fees you'd pay. There might be other costs at the product level (e.g. fund manager fees etc.).
People get (rightly) concerned about the compounding effect of fees over many years of growing their investments.
OPs mother is in a very different place, and handing them off to someone seems eminently sensible. Sounds like the family's biggest issue is going to be IHT - compared to that, the fees for handling her wealth are likely to be neither here nor there.
OPs mother is in a very different place, and handing them off to someone seems eminently sensible. Sounds like the family's biggest issue is going to be IHT - compared to that, the fees for handling her wealth are likely to be neither here nor there.
Sheepshanks said:
OPs mother is in a very different place, and handing them off to someone seems eminently sensible. Sounds like the family's biggest issue is going to be IHT - compared to that, the fees for handling her wealth are likely to be neither here nor there.
That same thought went through my own mind and I couldn't find a gentle way to say it. OP will be in best position to assess the timescale.Sheepshanks said:
People get (rightly) concerned about the compounding effect of fees over many years of growing their investments.
OPs mother is in a very different place, and handing them off to someone seems eminently sensible. Sounds like the family's biggest issue is going to be IHT - compared to that, the fees for handling her wealth are likely to be neither here nor there.
I think that's a very good point, and gets to the nub of it really. She doesn't need this money (at the moment), she has a very good pension that more than covers her day to day needs, owns her house outright etc. OPs mother is in a very different place, and handing them off to someone seems eminently sensible. Sounds like the family's biggest issue is going to be IHT - compared to that, the fees for handling her wealth are likely to be neither here nor there.
However we can't rule out that need for expensive care in the future, be that moving into care home, or staying in her home and having care come to her, either of which could be very expensive. And frankly, if the whole lot gets burned up making the rest of her life as comfortable and secure as possible, that's fine. It's her money. What we don't want is for it to be burned up by what turn out to be poor investments.
So I guess our two objectives are, protect the fund as much as possible and keep it safe for her (at the moment it's in all sorts of investments, and we don't know which are good or bad), and indeed, if it's not needed by her, or if it is then whatever is left, is shielded as much as possible from IHT. Obviously any growth is certainly a bonus, but it's less about trying to maximise the growth potential - that's been done already.
The conversations with BD sound like they'll do that, but then they would, they're trying to get us to invest with them, hence seeking a bit of outside advice, and the above comments (and any further thoughts) are very much appreciated.
I am with BD. Have been for a number of years.
I can tell you for free that if it is a substantial sum, you will be able to reduce the 1.5% fee.
Have you considered others Like Quilter or even HL? Have you talked to an IFA, they tend to have relationships with DFM and can probably help you / your mum with her needs, avoid you taking on the burden and hopefully increase value whilst helping with inheritance planning all within the 1.5% fee that you are quoted.
Happy to share details via DM.
I can tell you for free that if it is a substantial sum, you will be able to reduce the 1.5% fee.
Have you considered others Like Quilter or even HL? Have you talked to an IFA, they tend to have relationships with DFM and can probably help you / your mum with her needs, avoid you taking on the burden and hopefully increase value whilst helping with inheritance planning all within the 1.5% fee that you are quoted.
Happy to share details via DM.
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