Probate and other Admin after your 2nd Parent dies
Discussion
At the moment this isn't the nice structured and organised post that it needs to be - hopefully it might become that eventually.
The admin / probate tasks on the death of your first parent are relatively simple, and given that (in many cases) you have the surviving parent available to fill in the blanks, also makes things easier.
The tasks on the death of your second parent are correspondingly more difficult and currently I'm making it up as I go along. What I've found out so far is:
Mobile phone - you want this working until after the funeral - Whatsapp is tied to the mobile phone number and that's going to be the only way you have to contact some people
Email - you also want this working until after the funeral for the reasons mentioned above
House Insurance - the current insurer will probably only provide acceptable cover for 60 days after the date of death. After this, you'll need a specialised insurer. To take out this policy you'll need lots of details about the house and also about any prior claims - you may not have these and they may not be easy to find.
Probate - Form IHT 402 to transfer unused IHT allowances from the first parent to the second. What a joy this is. You need a copy of your first parents will, which you probably sent off to get probate when they died. You can download it, but it costs (not very much) and it's fairly clunky. I haven't managed to download the will yet, but I can download the grant of probate - which isn't much use as I already have a copy of this.
Probate - Form IHT 403 - Gifts - another bundle of fun. No gifts were made whilst my Dad was alive, but once he died my Mum started giving away money like it was going out of fashion. I've got a record of all of this, but there's only space for 15 gifts on form IHT 403 and there are many more than that - I haven't yet worked out how to deal with this.
The will - My Mum knew exactly where my Dad's will was, and hers (at the time) was a mirror of his. However, she did mention (in passing) that she'd made an updated will after my Dad passed. I can't find this anywhere. I've initiated a search on the National Will Register, but am not certain of a result. She was a tad confused for the final few months, so I'm not 100% certain that there actually is an updated document.
There's probably more to come from me on this topic, but I'll leave it here for now.
The admin / probate tasks on the death of your first parent are relatively simple, and given that (in many cases) you have the surviving parent available to fill in the blanks, also makes things easier.
The tasks on the death of your second parent are correspondingly more difficult and currently I'm making it up as I go along. What I've found out so far is:
Mobile phone - you want this working until after the funeral - Whatsapp is tied to the mobile phone number and that's going to be the only way you have to contact some people
Email - you also want this working until after the funeral for the reasons mentioned above
House Insurance - the current insurer will probably only provide acceptable cover for 60 days after the date of death. After this, you'll need a specialised insurer. To take out this policy you'll need lots of details about the house and also about any prior claims - you may not have these and they may not be easy to find.
Probate - Form IHT 402 to transfer unused IHT allowances from the first parent to the second. What a joy this is. You need a copy of your first parents will, which you probably sent off to get probate when they died. You can download it, but it costs (not very much) and it's fairly clunky. I haven't managed to download the will yet, but I can download the grant of probate - which isn't much use as I already have a copy of this.
Probate - Form IHT 403 - Gifts - another bundle of fun. No gifts were made whilst my Dad was alive, but once he died my Mum started giving away money like it was going out of fashion. I've got a record of all of this, but there's only space for 15 gifts on form IHT 403 and there are many more than that - I haven't yet worked out how to deal with this.
The will - My Mum knew exactly where my Dad's will was, and hers (at the time) was a mirror of his. However, she did mention (in passing) that she'd made an updated will after my Dad passed. I can't find this anywhere. I've initiated a search on the National Will Register, but am not certain of a result. She was a tad confused for the final few months, so I'm not 100% certain that there actually is an updated document.
There's probably more to come from me on this topic, but I'll leave it here for now.
Tell Us Once - Government service
Tell Us Once will notify:
HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) - to deal with personal tax and to cancel benefits and credits, for example Child Benefit
Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) - to cancel benefits and entitlements, for example Universal Credit or State Pension
Passport Office - to cancel a British passport
Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) - to cancel a licence, remove the person as the keeper of up to 5 vehicles and end the vehicle tax
the local council - to cancel Housing Benefit, Council Tax Reduction (sometimes called Council Tax Support), a Blue Badge, inform council housing services and remove the person from the electoral register
Veterans UK - to cancel or update Armed Forces Compensation Scheme payments
Social Security Scotland - to cancel benefits and entitlements from the Scottish Government, for example Scottish Child Payment
HMRC and DWP will contact you about the tax, benefits and entitlements of the person who died.
Tell Us Once will also contact some public sector pension schemes so that they cancel future pension payments. They’ll notify:
Armed Forces Pension Scheme
NHS Pensions for NHS staff in England and Wales
Scottish Public Pension Agency schemes for NHS staff, teachers, police and firefighters in Scotland
Pension Protection Fund and Financial Assistance Scheme
Local Government Pension Schemes (LGPS)
To close or change the details of the person’s financial accounts, you’ll need to contact organisations like:
banks
mortgage providers
insurance providers
companies that the person had contracts with, like utility companies, landlords or housing associations
personal or workplace pension schemes, unless they’re one of the public sector pension schemes that Tell Us Once contacts
Tell Us Once will notify:
HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) - to deal with personal tax and to cancel benefits and credits, for example Child Benefit
Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) - to cancel benefits and entitlements, for example Universal Credit or State Pension
Passport Office - to cancel a British passport
Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) - to cancel a licence, remove the person as the keeper of up to 5 vehicles and end the vehicle tax
the local council - to cancel Housing Benefit, Council Tax Reduction (sometimes called Council Tax Support), a Blue Badge, inform council housing services and remove the person from the electoral register
Veterans UK - to cancel or update Armed Forces Compensation Scheme payments
Social Security Scotland - to cancel benefits and entitlements from the Scottish Government, for example Scottish Child Payment
HMRC and DWP will contact you about the tax, benefits and entitlements of the person who died.
Tell Us Once will also contact some public sector pension schemes so that they cancel future pension payments. They’ll notify:
Armed Forces Pension Scheme
NHS Pensions for NHS staff in England and Wales
Scottish Public Pension Agency schemes for NHS staff, teachers, police and firefighters in Scotland
Pension Protection Fund and Financial Assistance Scheme
Local Government Pension Schemes (LGPS)
To close or change the details of the person’s financial accounts, you’ll need to contact organisations like:
banks
mortgage providers
insurance providers
companies that the person had contracts with, like utility companies, landlords or housing associations
personal or workplace pension schemes, unless they’re one of the public sector pension schemes that Tell Us Once contacts
omniflow said:
Probate - Form IHT 403 - Gifts - another bundle of fun. No gifts were made whilst my Dad was alive, but once he died my Mum started giving away money like it was going out of fashion. I've got a record of all of this, but there's only space for 15 gifts on form IHT 403 and there are many more than that - I haven't yet worked out how to deal with this.
I just made another copy of page 3.Just on the IHT 403 completion , you should be either able to add pages or add a note referring to a separate schedule even if not in the same format as long as the total carry over number tallies.
It is also possible to group together payments to the same individual within the same tax year and again add a further sheet of more detailed breakdowns.
Obviously this is all after you have worked out what are pure gifts and what are gifts out of additional / excess income.
OT , but I had to add multiple additional pages on the 400 form as regards music royalties including the ability to “ discuss “ how I thought this should be calculated.
It is also possible to group together payments to the same individual within the same tax year and again add a further sheet of more detailed breakdowns.
Obviously this is all after you have worked out what are pure gifts and what are gifts out of additional / excess income.
OT , but I had to add multiple additional pages on the 400 form as regards music royalties including the ability to “ discuss “ how I thought this should be calculated.
And on the House Insurance , always advise the circumstances to the existing Insurer as soon as you can.
Many will agree to stay on risk but may add specific conditions.
Obviously if necessary there is then the specialist market.
Generally if going to a new Insurer the questions are not really that different to any meerkats site so do not require specialist knowledge.
If more unusual or listed or whatever then the original Insurer may still be the preferred choice.
As with all such calls ask for the Bereavement team as even if they don’t have one you may well find a much more sympathetic ear.
This advice should be followed for all calls including banks and the like.
The tell me once scheme is ok but only deals with HMG depts and the previous time I used it then found it was actually better for me to know each part of my to do list had been done.
Actually that’s a tip in itself - make a to do list of everything you need to do / people to contact and have 2 columns. One to tick when called / emailed / written to and one when the process concerned has been completed.
You continue to have my sympathies as does anyone in this position especially when it’s the second parent that has died.
In between the copious work needed don’t forget to think of yourself and grieve.
Think of the work needed as a bunch of individual baby steps not as one giant step which frankly can be very daunting.
Many will agree to stay on risk but may add specific conditions.
Obviously if necessary there is then the specialist market.
Generally if going to a new Insurer the questions are not really that different to any meerkats site so do not require specialist knowledge.
If more unusual or listed or whatever then the original Insurer may still be the preferred choice.
As with all such calls ask for the Bereavement team as even if they don’t have one you may well find a much more sympathetic ear.
This advice should be followed for all calls including banks and the like.
The tell me once scheme is ok but only deals with HMG depts and the previous time I used it then found it was actually better for me to know each part of my to do list had been done.
Actually that’s a tip in itself - make a to do list of everything you need to do / people to contact and have 2 columns. One to tick when called / emailed / written to and one when the process concerned has been completed.
You continue to have my sympathies as does anyone in this position especially when it’s the second parent that has died.
In between the copious work needed don’t forget to think of yourself and grieve.
Think of the work needed as a bunch of individual baby steps not as one giant step which frankly can be very daunting.
I have just dealt with this as my dad passed away last October. Mum died in 2014 and I didn't have anything to do with sorting legal matters as my dad was able to deal with it back then.
I only needed a copy of dad's will which he had redone after mum's death. Originally they had mirrored wills and as they primarily left everything to one another it just meant that it all became his on her death. As far as I'm aware there was no need for probate when mum died.
The Tell us Once service was very useful and dealt with all the government agencies. If you have already registered the death then the registrar should have been through this with you.
Banks and utilities needed doing separately. The banks and building societies have bereavement departments and everything can be done online or over the phone. If there is less than 30k with any of them I found they paid out straight away without probate. Very straightforward and all the info will be on their websites. I found the bereavement teams very helpful and sympathetic.
With the utilities, most of them allowed a grace period where you could keep their services for a set length of time at no cost. Most were 90 days. So Mobile phone, broadband provider were fine to stay connected at first and after the 90 days I just had them stopped as I no longer needed them. The water company was the same, left it connected with no charge for 3 months. His flat is now listed with them as empty so there is no charge, even though we are allowed to use the water on the odd occasion that we need to go there. He was with Octopus and had built up a lot of credit which paid the bills over winter. I now pay them but as nobody is living in the property its little more than the standing charge.
Managed to do probate and IHT400 myself without involving solicitors which saved time and money. Dad's situation was fairly simple and no IHT was due so it might not be as straightforward for everyone.
Mostly I have found the organisations very good to deal with and what seemed an impossible task when he died has actually been okay.
I only needed a copy of dad's will which he had redone after mum's death. Originally they had mirrored wills and as they primarily left everything to one another it just meant that it all became his on her death. As far as I'm aware there was no need for probate when mum died.
The Tell us Once service was very useful and dealt with all the government agencies. If you have already registered the death then the registrar should have been through this with you.
Banks and utilities needed doing separately. The banks and building societies have bereavement departments and everything can be done online or over the phone. If there is less than 30k with any of them I found they paid out straight away without probate. Very straightforward and all the info will be on their websites. I found the bereavement teams very helpful and sympathetic.
With the utilities, most of them allowed a grace period where you could keep their services for a set length of time at no cost. Most were 90 days. So Mobile phone, broadband provider were fine to stay connected at first and after the 90 days I just had them stopped as I no longer needed them. The water company was the same, left it connected with no charge for 3 months. His flat is now listed with them as empty so there is no charge, even though we are allowed to use the water on the odd occasion that we need to go there. He was with Octopus and had built up a lot of credit which paid the bills over winter. I now pay them but as nobody is living in the property its little more than the standing charge.
Managed to do probate and IHT400 myself without involving solicitors which saved time and money. Dad's situation was fairly simple and no IHT was due so it might not be as straightforward for everyone.
Mostly I have found the organisations very good to deal with and what seemed an impossible task when he died has actually been okay.
ChrisH72 said:
Mostly I have found the organisations very good to deal with and what seemed an impossible task when he died has actually been okay.
No TV licence demand letters?My mum house is plagued with them dropping through her letter box most weeks, some quite threatening. We've phoned them and they stop the letters for a while and tell us to just ignore them, but then the letters start again. They say its an automative cycle and they cant stop them!!
The Gauge said:
ChrisH72 said:
Mostly I have found the organisations very good to deal with and what seemed an impossible task when he died has actually been okay.
No TV licence demand letters?My mum house is plagued with them dropping through her letter box most weeks, some quite threatening. We've phoned them and they stop the letters for a while and tell us to just ignore them, but then the letters start again. They say its an automative cycle and they cant stop them!!
There's no longer a TV there. And no WiFi so we couldn't even stream anything on a phone or tablet. If a letter comes they're more than welcome to call round and have a look!
I went through the whole thing for my Granmother. Check that the gifts are actually eligible for IHT. For example, if I was -old enough- to use my pension to pay for my Childs mortgage or car payments every month this wouldn't be considered a reduction of my capital as you've given it from surplus income.
[quote=ChrisH72. If there is less than 30k with any of them I found they paid out straight away without probate.
[/quote]
I am going through same process now. Regarding above, I assume you would need to be an executor listed on the will to enable the bank to pay out? What if you are a sole beneficiary but not an executor? Just to add an also in process of the executors appointing me as representative to take over reigns of dealing with the estate.
[/quote]
I am going through same process now. Regarding above, I assume you would need to be an executor listed on the will to enable the bank to pay out? What if you are a sole beneficiary but not an executor? Just to add an also in process of the executors appointing me as representative to take over reigns of dealing with the estate.
The Gauge said:
No TV licence demand letters?
My mum house is plagued with them dropping through her letter box most weeks, some quite threatening. We've phoned them and they stop the letters for a while and tell us to just ignore them, but then the letters start again. They say its an automative cycle and they cant stop them!!
I found that emailing them with a firm but polite note dealt with this.My mum house is plagued with them dropping through her letter box most weeks, some quite threatening. We've phoned them and they stop the letters for a while and tell us to just ignore them, but then the letters start again. They say its an automative cycle and they cant stop them!!
Keep email and mobile phone going and login regularly so that accounts don't expire.
Make a call with the mobile phone every month or the account may expire and make sure that you use the actual mobile network and not Wi-Fi calling as that does not count as usage apparently.
Keep any electronic device going as it may have stored passwords which you can never recover.
So much is online and digital and there is often no paper trail so there could be unknown assets that are never found.
Make a call with the mobile phone every month or the account may expire and make sure that you use the actual mobile network and not Wi-Fi calling as that does not count as usage apparently.
Keep any electronic device going as it may have stored passwords which you can never recover.
So much is online and digital and there is often no paper trail so there could be unknown assets that are never found.
Now here's a handy tip for anyone going through this.
DO NOT try and use form IHT402 to transfer unused RNRB (Residence Nil Rate Band). Form IHT402 is ONLY to transfer unused NRB.
To transfer the unused RNRB you also need to fill in form IHT436.
It's confusing because form IHT402 does reference RNRB - but that's only if the person who died first left SOME property to direct descendants. If all the property went to the surviving spouse then that doesn't get recorded on IHT402 at all.
Disclaimer - I am a total amateur at this - the above is what I have discovered and I THINK is correct. It may not be.
DO NOT try and use form IHT402 to transfer unused RNRB (Residence Nil Rate Band). Form IHT402 is ONLY to transfer unused NRB.
To transfer the unused RNRB you also need to fill in form IHT436.
It's confusing because form IHT402 does reference RNRB - but that's only if the person who died first left SOME property to direct descendants. If all the property went to the surviving spouse then that doesn't get recorded on IHT402 at all.
Disclaimer - I am a total amateur at this - the above is what I have discovered and I THINK is correct. It may not be.
VR99 said:
ChrisH72 said:
. If there is less than 30k with any of them I found they paid out straight away without probate.
I am going through same process now. Regarding above, I assume you would need to be an executor listed on the will to enable the bank to pay out? What if you are a sole beneficiary but not an executor? Just to add an also in process of the executors appointing me as representative to take over reigns of dealing with the estate.When me and my sister visited our mums banks with the death certificate some of them paid out the money to sue there and then, We were both executors and beneficiaries but I don't recall ever providing them with any proof, in fact I remember feeling uncomfortable with how easily they released the money to us,
It's worth knowing about these threshold limits as I want this to be as simple as possible for my son and will try and spread my money around different banks maintaining balances under their probate thresholds
omniflow said:
Now here's a handy tip for anyone going through this.
DO NOT try and use form IHT402 to transfer unused RNRB (Residence Nil Rate Band). Form IHT402 is ONLY to transfer unused NRB.
To transfer the unused RNRB you also need to fill in form IHT436.
It's confusing because form IHT402 does reference RNRB - but that's only if the person who died first left SOME property to direct descendants. If all the property went to the surviving spouse then that doesn't get recorded on IHT402 at all.
Disclaimer - I am a total amateur at this - the above is what I have discovered and I THINK is correct. It may not be.
RNRB is quite different to just the NRB as you have found hence the different 436 / 402 forms and yes the RNRB only applies where a direct descendent has been left said house. DO NOT try and use form IHT402 to transfer unused RNRB (Residence Nil Rate Band). Form IHT402 is ONLY to transfer unused NRB.
To transfer the unused RNRB you also need to fill in form IHT436.
It's confusing because form IHT402 does reference RNRB - but that's only if the person who died first left SOME property to direct descendants. If all the property went to the surviving spouse then that doesn't get recorded on IHT402 at all.
Disclaimer - I am a total amateur at this - the above is what I have discovered and I THINK is correct. It may not be.
It’s also worth saying that in the event of both parents ( upon second death ) passing away if parent one has left everything to parent 2 people assume that the total IHT relief available is £1m.
In fact should the combined estate be in excess of £2m then the RNRB works on a reducing sliding scale so that once £2.35m is reached ( depending on house value within this ) then it’s possible that said RNRB is reduced to effectively zero.
And another tip - there is no apparent time limit on relief made for a previously deceased partner when using the 402.
For a relatives estate I obtained nearly £ 210k in unused nrb allowance from her husbands death some 45 years previously.
Whilst this did involve using a solicitor for various reasons not least of which involved tracking down his own estate papers ( and no will at the time ) but the costs were a tiny fraction of the IHT “ saved “.
For a relatives estate I obtained nearly £ 210k in unused nrb allowance from her husbands death some 45 years previously.
Whilst this did involve using a solicitor for various reasons not least of which involved tracking down his own estate papers ( and no will at the time ) but the costs were a tiny fraction of the IHT “ saved “.
Some more detail that might help someone else in a similar situation and maybe save them an hour or two on hold to the HMRC IHT helpline.
Even if there's no IHT payable, if you need to use either IHT435 or IHT436 to transfer unused IHT allowances from the first parents death, then it's no longer an "excepted estate" and you need to submit IHT400 and get a response back from HMRC before you can apply for Probate.
In my case, this means I need to fill out and submit:
IHT400
IHT435
IHT436
IHT402
IHT403
IHT405
IHT406
IHT407
IHT409
IHT411
Other people may need to fill in even more.
Form IHT436 is broken - and from what I've read online - it's been broken for a while. The solution is extremely simple - everything needs to be printed out and posted to HMRC anyway, so just fill it in online until it stops working and then print it out and fill in the rest in pen.
I don't think any of the above is particularly complicated, but it is very tedious and does need you to have all of the information to hand.
I do think that the poster who mentioned making sure that you have a balance in at least one account that's below the probate threshold for that bank is extremely good advice. Luckily for me my Mum's balance with Nat West is below their probate threshold, so I can use her money to pay for the wake and other bills that she has.
Even if there's no IHT payable, if you need to use either IHT435 or IHT436 to transfer unused IHT allowances from the first parents death, then it's no longer an "excepted estate" and you need to submit IHT400 and get a response back from HMRC before you can apply for Probate.
In my case, this means I need to fill out and submit:
IHT400
IHT435
IHT436
IHT402
IHT403
IHT405
IHT406
IHT407
IHT409
IHT411
Other people may need to fill in even more.
Form IHT436 is broken - and from what I've read online - it's been broken for a while. The solution is extremely simple - everything needs to be printed out and posted to HMRC anyway, so just fill it in online until it stops working and then print it out and fill in the rest in pen.
I don't think any of the above is particularly complicated, but it is very tedious and does need you to have all of the information to hand.
I do think that the poster who mentioned making sure that you have a balance in at least one account that's below the probate threshold for that bank is extremely good advice. Luckily for me my Mum's balance with Nat West is below their probate threshold, so I can use her money to pay for the wake and other bills that she has.
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