A wonderful meal with bad aftertaste
Discussion
Bear with me, nothing much more than a festering grumble.
We went for a wonderful dinner last week at a Michelin star place. Ambience was relaxed, food was delicious, creative and of adequet size, service was great. The experience lived up to expectation.
The bad aftertaste.. the bill. Not the overall amount but the structure.
Advertised menu was at price X. Bill arrives, turns out the price was X + VAT, plus 10% service on the whole lot.
It really narked me that the advertised price wasn't VAT inclusive. Why??? It's not like I get a choice. This isn't the USA with state level taxes. Re-reading the online menu, it did say it was plus VAT, but my point is it just felt like deception or at least, some very underhand marketing.
I also get really annoyed at the 'discretionary' service charge. It's a Michelin starred place so I would fully expect the service to be excellent and the staff well paid. At this level, I don't see why the discretionary tip is necessary. Plus, it was 10% of the not inconsiderable VAT amount too!
It wasn't the overall amount but my ire was that they really should have just advertised the menu at the actual price, all inclusive. It's something of a destination place so not exactly competing with the local steak house or pizza place. These things just piss me off and I would think twice about going back on principle.
For balance, we had a three start lunch a few days later (I know, I know..) Absolutely wonderful food and service. It was a decent amount of money but although the service charge was added (again, why at this level - I think at this level exceptional service is more than an expectation for the price you're paying), but at least the advertised price was including VAT.
Given at this level they go to the extent of refolding the toilet paper and hand towels when you've been to the lav so the next person's experience is unsullied... the charging model left me with an unnecessary dissatisfaction.
Grumble over.
PS. No, I'm not going to name and shame. In all other regards, both experiences were exceptional and worth the money we did actually have to pay.
We went for a wonderful dinner last week at a Michelin star place. Ambience was relaxed, food was delicious, creative and of adequet size, service was great. The experience lived up to expectation.
The bad aftertaste.. the bill. Not the overall amount but the structure.
Advertised menu was at price X. Bill arrives, turns out the price was X + VAT, plus 10% service on the whole lot.
It really narked me that the advertised price wasn't VAT inclusive. Why??? It's not like I get a choice. This isn't the USA with state level taxes. Re-reading the online menu, it did say it was plus VAT, but my point is it just felt like deception or at least, some very underhand marketing.
I also get really annoyed at the 'discretionary' service charge. It's a Michelin starred place so I would fully expect the service to be excellent and the staff well paid. At this level, I don't see why the discretionary tip is necessary. Plus, it was 10% of the not inconsiderable VAT amount too!
It wasn't the overall amount but my ire was that they really should have just advertised the menu at the actual price, all inclusive. It's something of a destination place so not exactly competing with the local steak house or pizza place. These things just piss me off and I would think twice about going back on principle.
For balance, we had a three start lunch a few days later (I know, I know..) Absolutely wonderful food and service. It was a decent amount of money but although the service charge was added (again, why at this level - I think at this level exceptional service is more than an expectation for the price you're paying), but at least the advertised price was including VAT.
Given at this level they go to the extent of refolding the toilet paper and hand towels when you've been to the lav so the next person's experience is unsullied... the charging model left me with an unnecessary dissatisfaction.
Grumble over.
PS. No, I'm not going to name and shame. In all other regards, both experiences were exceptional and worth the money we did actually have to pay.
There's all sorts of rules and regulations that pircing should include non-optional taxes and charges. Unless the customers are predominately business customers - maybe they'll claim that.
Trouble is, there's not really anyone you can complain to these days as Trading Standards basically doesn't exist any more as far as consumers are concerned. If the menu was liteally advertised, than you could complain to the ASA.
Trouble is, there's not really anyone you can complain to these days as Trading Standards basically doesn't exist any more as far as consumers are concerned. If the menu was liteally advertised, than you could complain to the ASA.
Doofus said:
LooneyTunes said:
Showing pricing ex VAT isn t cricket. I d be rather unimpressed too.
It's also not lawful.I've also never seen it before in a restaurant.
OP:
Name them please, I'm curious.
You're only pointing out the observation you made on how they present prices and your own dislike at the service charge.
I stayed one night at a 5 star hotel recently which I've been going to for years. When I checked in they faffed about taking my card details, which I thought was a bit odd as I didn't remember them doing it in the past when I'd paid in full in advance. Became obvious why when checking out and it was revealed that they've started adding a service charge on.
I probably would have grumbled and not thought much more of it, but my wife had asked for a couple of champagne glasses at check in and been offered an ice bucket too, but they didn't arrive so she'd called down for them again. They never arrived, nor did any explanation.
Small things really and I paid the service charge despite the lack of service, but, like you say, it leaves a bad aftertaste. Recent reviews online say that they'd paid in advance and then been charged in full again, which is the sort of mistake you can see happening when you take card details twice. We won't be returning customers again. It's not cricket, just be up front.
I probably would have grumbled and not thought much more of it, but my wife had asked for a couple of champagne glasses at check in and been offered an ice bucket too, but they didn't arrive so she'd called down for them again. They never arrived, nor did any explanation.
Small things really and I paid the service charge despite the lack of service, but, like you say, it leaves a bad aftertaste. Recent reviews online say that they'd paid in advance and then been charged in full again, which is the sort of mistake you can see happening when you take card details twice. We won't be returning customers again. It's not cricket, just be up front.
Nothingtoseehere said:
Doofus said:
LooneyTunes said:
Showing pricing ex VAT isn t cricket. I d be rather unimpressed too.
It's also not lawful.I've also never seen it before in a restaurant.
OP:
Name them please, I'm curious.
You're only pointing out the observation you made on how they present prices and your own dislike at the service charge.
... I understood - specifically when it comes to restaurants - only that the +VAT price has to be available/"visible" somewhere on the premises. That it isn't on the menu doesn't (or at least didn't - it may have changed) make it not lawful. I'm not sure if it even has to specify +VAT on the menu (assuming they've met the previous requirement e.g. by printing all the +VAT prices on a postage-stamp-sized list stuck on the ceiling).On a similar topic, I think something similarly odd (albeit not VAT related) applies to paying for food in restaurants - that you don't (or didn't/may have changed) "have" to pay the price specified.
As to how widespread this pre-VAT menu pricing is - it has been going on for years in restaurants; which is why I looked it up in the first place many moons ago (as I also thought it was an odd, possibly "illegal", practice). I've seen it at a number of restaurants (not dissimilar to the OP's experience).
I await PH's restaurant owners/VAT specialists to confirm (i.e. provide the PDF link to the relevant VAT gov.uk documentation).
Sheepshanks said:
Trouble is, there's not really anyone you can complain to these days as Trading Standards basically doesn't exist any more as far as consumers are concerned. If the menu was liteally advertised, than you could complain to the ASA.
Yes, I found that out a few months ago. You know have to contact them via the CAB. I described my issue, saying what I was reporting was, I think, illegal. The CAB replied and said, yes, we think you are most likely correct, and said it would now be passed to Trading Standards. I kept the evidence, but I've never heard anything since.I wont bother myself with TS ever again now. A waste of time.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2003/2253/made...
4.4 ??
Either way, given everyone has to pay the VAT (even if some may be able to reclaim it) its pretty underhand to "advertise" ex VAT prices.
Buy all means say "Burger... £19.00 (£15.83+£3.17 VAT)" to highlight the fact the FBO only gets 15.83 but dont list it on the menu at that price then charge 19.
4.4 ??
Either way, given everyone has to pay the VAT (even if some may be able to reclaim it) its pretty underhand to "advertise" ex VAT prices.
Buy all means say "Burger... £19.00 (£15.83+£3.17 VAT)" to highlight the fact the FBO only gets 15.83 but dont list it on the menu at that price then charge 19.
Points of principle for consideration.
What is the difference between a takeaway, a self-service and a restaurant. Is that difference reflected in prices.
If you do not want to pay an additional service charge what are the options. Bring your own paper, write down what you want from the menu shown outside, pop in to the kitchen with your order, then ask the chef to ring the bell extra loud so you can hear it at table 9.
As far as I am concerned if you are operating as a restaurant then that comes with standards. If you do not meet those standards then you are in the self-service category.
What is the difference between a takeaway, a self-service and a restaurant. Is that difference reflected in prices.
If you do not want to pay an additional service charge what are the options. Bring your own paper, write down what you want from the menu shown outside, pop in to the kitchen with your order, then ask the chef to ring the bell extra loud so you can hear it at table 9.
As far as I am concerned if you are operating as a restaurant then that comes with standards. If you do not meet those standards then you are in the self-service category.
snuffy said:
Sheepshanks said:
Trouble is, there's not really anyone you can complain to these days as Trading Standards basically doesn't exist any more as far as consumers are concerned. If the menu was liteally advertised, than you could complain to the ASA.
Yes, I found that out a few months ago. You know have to contact them via the CAB. I described my issue, saying what I was reporting was, I think, illegal. The CAB replied and said, yes, we think you are most likely correct, and said it would now be passed to Trading Standards. I kept the evidence, but I've never heard anything since.I wont bother myself with TS ever again now. A waste of time.
I gave video evidence to the Police and heard nothing back from them however months later I found out that they secured a conviction / prosecuted the thief.
Caddyshack said:
Just because they don t give feedback doesn t mean Trading Standards didn t look at the company.
I gave video evidence to the Police and heard nothing back from them however months later I found out that they secured a conviction / prosecuted the thief.
Years ago, a friend reported something to TS. They investigated and told him the outcome.I gave video evidence to the Police and heard nothing back from them however months later I found out that they secured a conviction / prosecuted the thief.
So they used to. Its really little effort to report back with their finding. If they can't be arsed then neither can I.
I've had similar with a service charge and then an expectation of a tip too but then in the same bill an "optional" GiftTrees Charge to offset the carbon created to cook for me, I think that was about £1.20 per person so negligible on a £150 bill for two but it still irked me.
I got a bad aftertaste from the meal too, an insane Italian sardine dish that was like the concentrated essence and taste of every fishy fish ever in each bite...
I got a bad aftertaste from the meal too, an insane Italian sardine dish that was like the concentrated essence and taste of every fishy fish ever in each bite...
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