Where to start with an S1 or S2 Elise?
Discussion
Guys,
I'm looking for a third car. It will replace something which I had for ages but which a friend recently binned on a track day, and is in the process of leaving a hole in my garage. It will sit alongside a 987 Cayman and a Skoda Fabia, both of which are staying put.
A a third car it will probably only be used during the summer and be SORN'd in the winter. It will however be more than just something to be used on sunny Sundays; I'm hoping to use it for longer trips and perhaps some touring as well. Two seats is fine, but tolerable for a couple of hours drive at a time would be good. For reference, I've recently test-driven a Caterham and a childhood dream was shattered; it was just too primitive, too rough and too uncomfortable to cope with. I can understand the appeal but it would be a step too far for me, meaning it would get little use. The issue wasn't getting in and out (that was surprisingly easy); it was that it was noisy, harsh and rough, and any kind of road imperfection was massively intrusive. As I said, a childhood dream ruined and I don't think that a Caterham is the car for me.
Hence I am moving my sights along the civilisation scale and coming to the Elise. I don't want something ponderously slow but I am looking for fun and driving fidelity over outright performance. My eyes have lit upon the Elise 111S, which I understand came in S1 and S2 guises. The (purely paper-based) appeal of one of these is that it seems respectably brisk while still being very precise to drive; unassisted brakes and unassisted steering being a major appeal, along with the lack of ABS/Traction Control and so on.
However it seems that the Elise came with a number of different model names, some of which had a remarkably similar spec. What else is there in the 160(ish)bhp range? I am aware of the 111R but that doesn't appeal quite as much as it sounds heavier and a move away from what I am looking for.
Also, what's the difference between the S1 and the S2 when it comes to things in 111S flavour? As far as I can gather, the S1 is purer but a little less civilised while the S2 is not quite as sharp to drive but a little more civilised. Is there anything more to know?
The next question is where can I go to look at cars like these? What Facebook groups (or other forums) are good for these cars and are there any owner's club meets local to me who would be friendly to an outsider? I'm in Gloucestershire. If any local owner wanted to show me around their machine I'd be very happy to take them up on an offer, but I recognise that this is a big ask.
What else should I be looking at as well? The S1 in 120bhp (base) spec is a bit cheaper (and I prefer the shape of the S1 over the S2), but how much less of a car is it to drive than the S2?
All wisdom welcomed, thanks.
I'm looking for a third car. It will replace something which I had for ages but which a friend recently binned on a track day, and is in the process of leaving a hole in my garage. It will sit alongside a 987 Cayman and a Skoda Fabia, both of which are staying put.
A a third car it will probably only be used during the summer and be SORN'd in the winter. It will however be more than just something to be used on sunny Sundays; I'm hoping to use it for longer trips and perhaps some touring as well. Two seats is fine, but tolerable for a couple of hours drive at a time would be good. For reference, I've recently test-driven a Caterham and a childhood dream was shattered; it was just too primitive, too rough and too uncomfortable to cope with. I can understand the appeal but it would be a step too far for me, meaning it would get little use. The issue wasn't getting in and out (that was surprisingly easy); it was that it was noisy, harsh and rough, and any kind of road imperfection was massively intrusive. As I said, a childhood dream ruined and I don't think that a Caterham is the car for me.
Hence I am moving my sights along the civilisation scale and coming to the Elise. I don't want something ponderously slow but I am looking for fun and driving fidelity over outright performance. My eyes have lit upon the Elise 111S, which I understand came in S1 and S2 guises. The (purely paper-based) appeal of one of these is that it seems respectably brisk while still being very precise to drive; unassisted brakes and unassisted steering being a major appeal, along with the lack of ABS/Traction Control and so on.
However it seems that the Elise came with a number of different model names, some of which had a remarkably similar spec. What else is there in the 160(ish)bhp range? I am aware of the 111R but that doesn't appeal quite as much as it sounds heavier and a move away from what I am looking for.
Also, what's the difference between the S1 and the S2 when it comes to things in 111S flavour? As far as I can gather, the S1 is purer but a little less civilised while the S2 is not quite as sharp to drive but a little more civilised. Is there anything more to know?
The next question is where can I go to look at cars like these? What Facebook groups (or other forums) are good for these cars and are there any owner's club meets local to me who would be friendly to an outsider? I'm in Gloucestershire. If any local owner wanted to show me around their machine I'd be very happy to take them up on an offer, but I recognise that this is a big ask.
What else should I be looking at as well? The S1 in 120bhp (base) spec is a bit cheaper (and I prefer the shape of the S1 over the S2), but how much less of a car is it to drive than the S2?
All wisdom welcomed, thanks.
Regarding the S1 vs S2 111S:
The S1 is a little less powerful - 143bhp vs 156bhp and a little lighter - about 750kg vs 800kg. It's a bit harder to get in and out of due to the S1's higher sills, and MUCH harder to take the roof on and off. Handling-wise very few cars will be standard and, minor weight difference aside, any Elise platform car can be made to handle pretty much like any other with only moderate tweaks. You could get air conditioning in the S2, although it added weight and wasn't particularly effective. The S2 also had more comfortable seats, at least for me (although again, S2 seats can be retrofitted to an S1).
Other options around that power level would be the Sport 160 - which is a non-VVC engine with slightly more extreme cams. I think it also had a stiffer suspension setup and slightly different geometry from the factory, although again very few cars are standard these days so it's largely irrelevant. It's a mind version of what's called the VHPD K-series (very high performance derivative). There's also the Sport-190 which is like a Sport-160 on steroids; they're very rare, require a bit more care and attention to run, and are quite expensive. There's also a Sport-135 below the Sport-160. Then there's the naturally aspirated VX220 which has something like 140bhp but isn't available without a brake servo.
There's also the (rather rare) S2 111 (without the S) which is the 156bhp VVC engine without the extra creature comforts of the 111S (like carpets).
ETA: In terms of what to look for - IMO condition is what really matters. Mileage, age, originality, service history, etc. are all poor indicators. Some of the very best cars out there will have been DIY maintained, although of course so will some of the worst. The engine is simple and (head gasket aside) pretty reliable and cheap to replace if it does fail anyway. Suspension needs regular rebuilds - both the dampers and the bushes wear out surprisingly quickly; if a car is on more than about 50k miles and is still on its original bushes and/or dampers they will probably need replacing sooner rather than later. Steering racks are also a consumable if you want to run to really high miles and maintain the handling.
Unless you're pretty mechanically savvy, I'd get a specialist to look over any car you're considering buying. There's some nasty potential issues such as galvanic corrosion of the suspension pickups (which is very hard to repair). Don't necessarily completely discount a car because it doesn't feel right to drive, small differences in geometry make a huge difference which is obviously not difficult to correct. Again a specialist should be able to tell the difference between a bent chassis and a bit too much toe.
The S1 is a little less powerful - 143bhp vs 156bhp and a little lighter - about 750kg vs 800kg. It's a bit harder to get in and out of due to the S1's higher sills, and MUCH harder to take the roof on and off. Handling-wise very few cars will be standard and, minor weight difference aside, any Elise platform car can be made to handle pretty much like any other with only moderate tweaks. You could get air conditioning in the S2, although it added weight and wasn't particularly effective. The S2 also had more comfortable seats, at least for me (although again, S2 seats can be retrofitted to an S1).
Other options around that power level would be the Sport 160 - which is a non-VVC engine with slightly more extreme cams. I think it also had a stiffer suspension setup and slightly different geometry from the factory, although again very few cars are standard these days so it's largely irrelevant. It's a mind version of what's called the VHPD K-series (very high performance derivative). There's also the Sport-190 which is like a Sport-160 on steroids; they're very rare, require a bit more care and attention to run, and are quite expensive. There's also a Sport-135 below the Sport-160. Then there's the naturally aspirated VX220 which has something like 140bhp but isn't available without a brake servo.
There's also the (rather rare) S2 111 (without the S) which is the 156bhp VVC engine without the extra creature comforts of the 111S (like carpets).
ETA: In terms of what to look for - IMO condition is what really matters. Mileage, age, originality, service history, etc. are all poor indicators. Some of the very best cars out there will have been DIY maintained, although of course so will some of the worst. The engine is simple and (head gasket aside) pretty reliable and cheap to replace if it does fail anyway. Suspension needs regular rebuilds - both the dampers and the bushes wear out surprisingly quickly; if a car is on more than about 50k miles and is still on its original bushes and/or dampers they will probably need replacing sooner rather than later. Steering racks are also a consumable if you want to run to really high miles and maintain the handling.
Unless you're pretty mechanically savvy, I'd get a specialist to look over any car you're considering buying. There's some nasty potential issues such as galvanic corrosion of the suspension pickups (which is very hard to repair). Don't necessarily completely discount a car because it doesn't feel right to drive, small differences in geometry make a huge difference which is obviously not difficult to correct. Again a specialist should be able to tell the difference between a bent chassis and a bit too much toe.
Edited by kambites on Monday 8th June 18:38
Have you considered some of the early Toyota engined Elsises too?
The entry level 111R had 189bhp but again was slightly heavier than the S2 111S
I had one of the very early 111Rs 54 plate and it was a great car, the 2nd cam was slightly addictive. The 111S & 111R are very different to drive, so would suggest trying both before making any decision
Oh and the S2 roof, is so much simpler to remove/add, it makes you take it off at every opportunity
The entry level 111R had 189bhp but again was slightly heavier than the S2 111S
I had one of the very early 111Rs 54 plate and it was a great car, the 2nd cam was slightly addictive. The 111S & 111R are very different to drive, so would suggest trying both before making any decision
Oh and the S2 roof, is so much simpler to remove/add, it makes you take it off at every opportunity
I shall write a longer reply later when I have more time but I have a bit of experience in the cars you mention albeit the other way round.
I owned an Elise S1 111S for a few years and fancied something a bit more raw so sold the S1 about 2 months ago and bought a Caterham R400K.
At the same time my lad bought an Elise S2 111S so can certainly compare all 3 cars you mention and the good and bad points of them all.
I owned an Elise S1 111S for a few years and fancied something a bit more raw so sold the S1 about 2 months ago and bought a Caterham R400K.
At the same time my lad bought an Elise S2 111S so can certainly compare all 3 cars you mention and the good and bad points of them all.
Drive them both and see which you prefer would be my advice. They’re all superb, I’ve owned and driven a few and much prefer the S1, I prefer the unservoed brakes of the s1 and also prefer the simpler interior and somehow, although the s2 is fractionally bigger, at 6’4” ish I found it easier to get comfortable in the S1.
The poster above is right about the roof, the s2 roof is much better
They get progressively heavier as they get newer and whilst all Elise’s are still very, very light by modern standards the s1 is noticeably lighter and it shows.
Power wise I had a 118bhp one, tuned it to 140-ish and eventually put a k20 in it which made it much faster but not necessarily better. I wouldn’t do that again. I’d say around 130-140bhp is a real sweet spot for them. Quick but not crazy, they’re not about straight line speed
The poster above is right about the roof, the s2 roof is much better
They get progressively heavier as they get newer and whilst all Elise’s are still very, very light by modern standards the s1 is noticeably lighter and it shows.
Power wise I had a 118bhp one, tuned it to 140-ish and eventually put a k20 in it which made it much faster but not necessarily better. I wouldn’t do that again. I’d say around 130-140bhp is a real sweet spot for them. Quick but not crazy, they’re not about straight line speed
Lefty said:
Drive them both and see which you prefer would be my advice. They re all superb, I ve owned and driven a few and much prefer the S1, I prefer the unservoed brakes of the s1 and also prefer the simpler interior and somehow, although the s2 is fractionally bigger, at 6 4 ish I found it easier to get comfortable in the S1.
The S2 the OP is looking at also has unassisted brakes. Regarding the interior thing, I think the early S2's seats are mounted slightly (less than a cm) higher than the S1's, but it's easy enough to lower them if you want to. Again the bigger difference is between early and later S2s.
In most ways, I think the K-series powered S2 cars are more similar to the S1 than they are to the later, Toyota powered S2 variants. I suppose they're a sort of S1.5.
Even in weight terms, the big step wasn't S1 to S2, but K-series to Toyota. A very late S1 and a very early S2 only differ by about 20-30kg.
Edited by kambites on Monday 8th June 20:47
As far as meets go the Lotus Drivers Club seems most active these days. If you go on the website you can find a link to WhatsApp groups for regional meets.
https://www.lotusdriversclub.org.uk/area-meetings
SELOC is worth checking out too.
https://www.lotusdriversclub.org.uk/area-meetings
SELOC is worth checking out too.
John D. said:
All the Rover engined cars have un-servo'd brakes I believe. I love the feel of them over the brakes on the later Toyota engined cars. Still wouldn't say no to a S2 Exige though!
It's the main reason I got a 111S. I just couldn't get on with the brakes on the Toyota powered cars or the VX220 (although I was looking at very early ones and apparently Lotus significantly improved them in later cars). kambites said:
It's the main reason I got a 111S. I just couldn't get on with the brakes on the Toyota powered cars or the VX220 (although I was looking at very early ones and apparently Lotus significantly improved them in later cars). I drove a Toyota 'S' S2 almost back to back with a S1 Sport 160 I owned at the time. Brake feel was really disappointing, engine was dull and sounded crap, and it just felt like a much more 'normal' car. I'm sure if I'd driven it in isolation I'd have been blown away though
Lefty said:
Ahhhh i didn t know some s2 s had unservoed brakes. I m pretty sure I ve driven a rover engined s2 that had a servo though, did some of the last k series ones have it?
No, only the Toyota powered cars had servo-assisted brakes and ABS (and the VX220). I suppose someone might have retrofitted a system to a Rover powered car, but it would be a weird thing to do!ETA: I guess Lotus might have produced a prototype or two with the K-series and a brake servo while they were developing the VX220?
Edited by kambites on Monday 8th June 21:56
kambites said:
Lefty said:
Ahhhh i didn t know some s2 s had unservoed brakes. I m pretty sure I ve driven a rover engined s2 that had a servo though, did some of the last k series ones have it?
No, only the Toyota powered cars had servo-assisted brakes and ABS (and the VX220). I suppose someone might have retrofitted a system to a Rover powered car, but it would be a weird thing to do!ETA: I guess Lotus might have produced a prototype or two with the K-series and a brake servo while they were developing the VX220?
Edited by kambites on Monday 8th June 21:56
in my opinion
jules_s said:
The answer to the S1/S2 question is always VX220
in my opinion
Not for anyone who values brake feel it's not! in my opinion
I test drove both VX220 variants, along with various S1 Elises, the S2 111S and the S2 111R. For me, the order of desirability was S2 111S > S1 111S > standard S1 > 111R > VX220 2.2 > VX220 turbo. Which obviously is a refinement of "unassisted brakes > assisted brakes".
I'd quite like to try a supercharged 2.2 VX220 with the brake servo removed. Not sure that would be road-legal though!
kambites said:
Not for anyone who values brake feel it's not!
I test drove both VX220 variants, along with various S1 Elises, the S2 111S and the S2 111R. For me, the order of desirability was S2 111S > S1 111S > standard S1 > 111R > VX220 2.2 > VX220 turbo. Which obviously is a refinement of "unassisted brakes > assisted brakes".
I'd quite like to try a supercharged 2.2 VX220 with the brake servo removed. Not sure that would be road-legal though!
You're a driving god I test drove both VX220 variants, along with various S1 Elises, the S2 111S and the S2 111R. For me, the order of desirability was S2 111S > S1 111S > standard S1 > 111R > VX220 2.2 > VX220 turbo. Which obviously is a refinement of "unassisted brakes > assisted brakes".
I'd quite like to try a supercharged 2.2 VX220 with the brake servo removed. Not sure that would be road-legal though!
I'm sure I recall your name from somewhere?
Both VX's were not great out of the box - better pads helped enormously, then the 4 pot exige option.
Either way, I doubt either of the OP's choices would still be standard
They're all brilliant cars though
jules_s said:
They're all brilliant cars though
That's the thing really, they're all far more like each other than anything else. And apart from the brakes (which I believe sadly can't be changed legally) and the engines (which are very much personal preference) any 111 platform car can be made to drive pretty much like any other just by changing bolt-on components.
The Elise rides well enough for a couple of hours on the motorway. You’ll not be in “relaxed cruise” as the car will tell you about every road surface and camber change, but it’s informative rather than constant control input needed.
It will be loud. I have an aftermarket Larini, and it’s earplugs if I’m going on the motorway.
I prefer the unassisted brakes and lightweight torquey nature of the 111S. I know folks who much prefer the later Toyota powered cars. There is no right answer, drive both.
It will be loud. I have an aftermarket Larini, and it’s earplugs if I’m going on the motorway.
I prefer the unassisted brakes and lightweight torquey nature of the 111S. I know folks who much prefer the later Toyota powered cars. There is no right answer, drive both.
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