Buying Etiquette
Discussion
Im going to be in the very fortunate position of buying my first Ferrari later this year. Having never bought a car of this value before (I’m going for a 458), if you buy from a reputable independent would you still ask to have the car independently inspected or does dealer reputation make this a non require requirement? The reason I’m asking, Talacrest have a rather lovely 458 for sale. How would such a dealer react to a PPI request?
A PPI on these kind of cars is essential imo and if a dealer refused to allow one to be undertaken I would run a mile.
I purchased my 488 from an independent with a very shady reputation, but they were quite accommodating when I said I wanted an independent inspection done and made workshop space and a ramp available to assist with this.
I purchased my 488 from an independent with a very shady reputation, but they were quite accommodating when I said I wanted an independent inspection done and made workshop space and a ramp available to assist with this.
Recent experience attempting to buy a 458 Coupe from a well known Ferrari approved main dealer:
The car was "Ferrari approved" however I had an independent inspection which flagged the following:
Front ceramics excessively worn and out of approved Ferrari approved specifications. Replacement cost: £12k
Play in rear wheel hubs
Front end had been resprayed (not unusual ime). But get this - the respray had been over existing PPF!
My better nature would like to think this is an exception and not the norm from Ferrari approved. But as with any purchase go-in eyes open + a trusted inspection is worth its weight in gold and a potential great negotiating strategy.
The car was "Ferrari approved" however I had an independent inspection which flagged the following:
Front ceramics excessively worn and out of approved Ferrari approved specifications. Replacement cost: £12k
Play in rear wheel hubs
Front end had been resprayed (not unusual ime). But get this - the respray had been over existing PPF!
My better nature would like to think this is an exception and not the norm from Ferrari approved. But as with any purchase go-in eyes open + a trusted inspection is worth its weight in gold and a potential great negotiating strategy.
it can't be a bad thing to give piece of mind, and would expect a dealer to be accommodating, however if you do pick up a load of stuff that maybe is sub optimal but not critical, as I would expect might generally be the case in most used cars, do you ever manage to get that money knocked off? Maybe, assuming the sub optimal stuff is not apparent to the layman customer, ignorance is sometimes bliss?!
I didn t look at the car until just now. Personally I wouldn t buy a 458 unless it was a 2013 or later. They made reliability changes in 2012.
After 2012, Ferrari addressed several reliability and drivability issues on the 458 platform, predominantly focusing on the Getrag 7-speed dual-clutch transmission (DCT). These updates improved overall durability and smoothed out the electronic controllers and wiring issues that plagued early models.The key reliability and performance changes on post-2012 models included:Gearbox Upgrades: Following electronic issues in 2010 and 2011 models (such as sensor failures and chafing wiring looms), Getrag completely revised the transmission design for 2011/2012. Post-2012 cars use these upgraded, much more reliable transmission units.Engine Revisions: Early models (2011–2012) were subject to crankshaft issues that could lead to sudden engine seizure. Later production runs addressed this manufacturing defect, making post-2012 engines significantly more robust.Software Updates (Gearbox & Engine): Ferrari rolled out new software and ECU mapping that made shifting more aggressive (increasing the "kick" in Race mode) compared to the initially criticized overly-smooth early gearboxes. These ECU updates also altered the exhaust mapping, reducing the unburned fuel overrun to both eliminate aggressive pops/crackles and meet newer emissions standards.
After 2012, Ferrari addressed several reliability and drivability issues on the 458 platform, predominantly focusing on the Getrag 7-speed dual-clutch transmission (DCT). These updates improved overall durability and smoothed out the electronic controllers and wiring issues that plagued early models.The key reliability and performance changes on post-2012 models included:Gearbox Upgrades: Following electronic issues in 2010 and 2011 models (such as sensor failures and chafing wiring looms), Getrag completely revised the transmission design for 2011/2012. Post-2012 cars use these upgraded, much more reliable transmission units.Engine Revisions: Early models (2011–2012) were subject to crankshaft issues that could lead to sudden engine seizure. Later production runs addressed this manufacturing defect, making post-2012 engines significantly more robust.Software Updates (Gearbox & Engine): Ferrari rolled out new software and ECU mapping that made shifting more aggressive (increasing the "kick" in Race mode) compared to the initially criticized overly-smooth early gearboxes. These ECU updates also altered the exhaust mapping, reducing the unburned fuel overrun to both eliminate aggressive pops/crackles and meet newer emissions standards.
andyr said:
I didn t look at the car until just now. Personally I wouldn t buy a 458 unless it was a 2013 or later. They made reliability changes in 2012.
After 2012, Ferrari addressed several reliability and drivability issues on the 458 platform, predominantly focusing on the Getrag 7-speed dual-clutch transmission (DCT). These updates improved overall durability and smoothed out the electronic controllers and wiring issues that plagued early models.The key reliability and performance changes on post-2012 models included:Gearbox Upgrades: Following electronic issues in 2010 and 2011 models (such as sensor failures and chafing wiring looms), Getrag completely revised the transmission design for 2011/2012. Post-2012 cars use these upgraded, much more reliable transmission units.Engine Revisions: Early models (2011 2012) were subject to crankshaft issues that could lead to sudden engine seizure. Later production runs addressed this manufacturing defect, making post-2012 engines significantly more robust.Software Updates (Gearbox & Engine): Ferrari rolled out new software and ECU mapping that made shifting more aggressive (increasing the "kick" in Race mode) compared to the initially criticized overly-smooth early gearboxes. These ECU updates also altered the exhaust mapping, reducing the unburned fuel overrun to both eliminate aggressive pops/crackles and meet newer emissions standards.
Never heard of any of that, reads a bit like an inaccurate AI scrape?After 2012, Ferrari addressed several reliability and drivability issues on the 458 platform, predominantly focusing on the Getrag 7-speed dual-clutch transmission (DCT). These updates improved overall durability and smoothed out the electronic controllers and wiring issues that plagued early models.The key reliability and performance changes on post-2012 models included:Gearbox Upgrades: Following electronic issues in 2010 and 2011 models (such as sensor failures and chafing wiring looms), Getrag completely revised the transmission design for 2011/2012. Post-2012 cars use these upgraded, much more reliable transmission units.Engine Revisions: Early models (2011 2012) were subject to crankshaft issues that could lead to sudden engine seizure. Later production runs addressed this manufacturing defect, making post-2012 engines significantly more robust.Software Updates (Gearbox & Engine): Ferrari rolled out new software and ECU mapping that made shifting more aggressive (increasing the "kick" in Race mode) compared to the initially criticized overly-smooth early gearboxes. These ECU updates also altered the exhaust mapping, reducing the unburned fuel overrun to both eliminate aggressive pops/crackles and meet newer emissions standards.
There’s a lot of owners with heads buried in sand .
The DCT transmission made by Getrag in Germany and used in all modern Ferrari's is the most complex part/system in the entire car. There is not one universal "sensor" that has a problem which can solved by replacement. There are 4 pressure sensors, 4 speed sensors, 3 temperature sensors, 6 position sensors that all have 2 pin electrical connectors, and provide information to the DCT ECU. The DCT ECU controls the function of 17 solenoid valves inside the transmission through three wiring harnesses with 68 wires inside the transmission. There are three external connectors on the transmission housing: two 26 pin connectors, and one 16 pin connector (total of 68 pins, of which only 58 pins are used). All of the wiring/connections/sensors and solenoids live in a bath of 100 degree C oil, and are exposed to severe vibrations and G loads. If just one sensor, connector, wire, solenoid has a problem, then a fault will be set and the transmission may malfunction.
While earlier production transmissions had wire routing/chafing issues that have been rectified in the later units, any of the later transmissions can and do have issues with mostly speed/pressure/temperature sensors. With time and use, the DCT transmissions are only going to have more problems. This is only the electrical portion of the transmission. Also consider that the transmission has two separate oil/hydraulic systems which must remain separate from each other with associated seals and sealant. Time and heat also take their toll on these components.
Removal, disassembly and repair of a DCT transmission is not a inconsiderate bill. Figure at least 30-40 hours of labor plus parts to repair any internal DCT issue.
There’s a lot of owners with heads buried in sand .
The DCT transmission made by Getrag in Germany and used in all modern Ferrari's is the most complex part/system in the entire car. There is not one universal "sensor" that has a problem which can solved by replacement. There are 4 pressure sensors, 4 speed sensors, 3 temperature sensors, 6 position sensors that all have 2 pin electrical connectors, and provide information to the DCT ECU. The DCT ECU controls the function of 17 solenoid valves inside the transmission through three wiring harnesses with 68 wires inside the transmission. There are three external connectors on the transmission housing: two 26 pin connectors, and one 16 pin connector (total of 68 pins, of which only 58 pins are used). All of the wiring/connections/sensors and solenoids live in a bath of 100 degree C oil, and are exposed to severe vibrations and G loads. If just one sensor, connector, wire, solenoid has a problem, then a fault will be set and the transmission may malfunction.
While earlier production transmissions had wire routing/chafing issues that have been rectified in the later units, any of the later transmissions can and do have issues with mostly speed/pressure/temperature sensors. With time and use, the DCT transmissions are only going to have more problems. This is only the electrical portion of the transmission. Also consider that the transmission has two separate oil/hydraulic systems which must remain separate from each other with associated seals and sealant. Time and heat also take their toll on these components.
Removal, disassembly and repair of a DCT transmission is not a inconsiderate bill. Figure at least 30-40 hours of labor plus parts to repair any internal DCT issue.
andyr said:
Following electronic issues in 2010 and 2011 models (such as sensor failures and chafing wiring looms), Getrag completely revised the transmission design for 2011/2012..
Brother had the chafing wiring loom on his 458 Spider and his California T before that, luckily he had the Ferrari warranty in both cases. These were both low mileage cars.My 2 cents.
Its much easier to buy than sell, so haggle hard.
Be realistic with running costs, there are plenty of wear items that heat cycles will cause rather than mileage.
PPI - I would get one and not even think about it without.
Consider holding off till winter if you can - the market always goes busy around now.
Serious buyers are much rarer in Nov / Dec / Jan.
Its much easier to buy than sell, so haggle hard.
Be realistic with running costs, there are plenty of wear items that heat cycles will cause rather than mileage.
PPI - I would get one and not even think about it without.
Consider holding off till winter if you can - the market always goes busy around now.
Serious buyers are much rarer in Nov / Dec / Jan.
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