The economic death of tinkering and mechanical skill
Discussion
I came across this great thought piece this morning: https://x.com/itsphasetwo/status/20127247336498425...
(Yes, it's AI and it's got a bitcoin pitch in the middle of it - but the surrounding prompted argument is valid).
It bemoans the cross-generational disparity in wealth and how, as a consequence, the current middle-aged and younger will never be able to afford a house with a garage large enough to learn by doing. And how that economic reality denies them their chance to develop the skills that the retired have the luxury of having had a lifetime to acquire.
It stuck a lot of chords with me, as I'm close to ending my career and I'm looking for somewhere with a garage large enough to work on a car inside it. And I'm realising - just like the author of this piece - that I'm about a generation too late to be able to afford that ambition. The simple ambition of being able to tinker around and learn by doing.
It's really sad. The end of something important. As the article questions - where will the next wave of engineers come from?
(Yes, it's AI and it's got a bitcoin pitch in the middle of it - but the surrounding prompted argument is valid).
It bemoans the cross-generational disparity in wealth and how, as a consequence, the current middle-aged and younger will never be able to afford a house with a garage large enough to learn by doing. And how that economic reality denies them their chance to develop the skills that the retired have the luxury of having had a lifetime to acquire.
It stuck a lot of chords with me, as I'm close to ending my career and I'm looking for somewhere with a garage large enough to work on a car inside it. And I'm realising - just like the author of this piece - that I'm about a generation too late to be able to afford that ambition. The simple ambition of being able to tinker around and learn by doing.
It's really sad. The end of something important. As the article questions - where will the next wave of engineers come from?
Edited by dxg on Saturday 11th July 08:00
Not had a proper garage I can work in, have built and engine, changed suspension, brakes, servicing and done lot of welding on the path.
Seen loads of guys on Retro rides building cars on paths and even the road, where there is a will there is a way.
But it is a good point, the bar has been raised, you need to really want to.
I think perhaps as well a lot of dads don’t do stuff, my eldest will give stuff a go, he asked me if he could borrow the drive and did his mates suspension and brakes on his mini that had failed the MOT as a favour.
Can only think of one of my neighbours who does anything on his car, actually two as there is one with an old Landrover, those guys are sixty ish, never seen any of the others lift a bonnet and they range from 50 to 75, they don’t need to as they have new cars and plenty of cash.
Seen loads of guys on Retro rides building cars on paths and even the road, where there is a will there is a way.
But it is a good point, the bar has been raised, you need to really want to.
I think perhaps as well a lot of dads don’t do stuff, my eldest will give stuff a go, he asked me if he could borrow the drive and did his mates suspension and brakes on his mini that had failed the MOT as a favour.
Can only think of one of my neighbours who does anything on his car, actually two as there is one with an old Landrover, those guys are sixty ish, never seen any of the others lift a bonnet and they range from 50 to 75, they don’t need to as they have new cars and plenty of cash.
dxg said:
I came across this great thought piece this morning: https://x.com/itsphasetwo/status/20127247336498425...
(Yes, it's AI and it's got a bitcoin pitch in the middle of it - but the surrounding prompted argument is valid).
It bemoans the cross-generational disparity in wealth and how, as a consequence, the current middle-aged and younger will never be able to afford a house with a garage large enough to learn by doing. And how that economic reality denies them their chance to develop the skills that the retired have the luxury of having had a lifetime to acquire.
It stuck a lot of chords with me, as I'm close to ending my career and I'm looking for somewhere with a garage large enough to work on a car inside it. And I'm realising - just like the author of this piece - that I'm about a generation too late to be able to afford that ambition. The simple ambition of being able to tinker around and learn by doing.
It's really sad. The end of something important. As the article questions - where will the next wave of engineers come from?
Being unable to afford a house with a garage is hyperbole.(Yes, it's AI and it's got a bitcoin pitch in the middle of it - but the surrounding prompted argument is valid).
It bemoans the cross-generational disparity in wealth and how, as a consequence, the current middle-aged and younger will never be able to afford a house with a garage large enough to learn by doing. And how that economic reality denies them their chance to develop the skills that the retired have the luxury of having had a lifetime to acquire.
It stuck a lot of chords with me, as I'm close to ending my career and I'm looking for somewhere with a garage large enough to work on a car inside it. And I'm realising - just like the author of this piece - that I'm about a generation too late to be able to afford that ambition. The simple ambition of being able to tinker around and learn by doing.
It's really sad. The end of something important. As the article questions - where will the next wave of engineers come from?
Edited by dxg on Saturday 11th July 08:00
I couldn't afford a house with a garage until I was in my mid thirties. I spent years from 21 to 35 saving money and trading up from bedsit to flat to terrace then semi. We have a regional affordability issue in the UK, mainly focused on the SE. I wanted to live in the best area in the county and expected it would take a while, not that I would be able to do it as a first, second or third time buyer. It took me 20 years.
Secondly, I believe a majority of young people have little interest in 'doing'. They'd rather lease a car for £299 a month than buy cheap and learn to fix it up and maintain it. As for fixing an appliance, they'd rather update their Insta.
People who want to be engineers when they grow up still can and still do. At the same time, career aspirations and opportunities have changed. Marketing and IT weren't mainstream job opportunities for people until relatively recently and in parallel with the transition/reversal of our economy from manufacturing to service based.
If you're ending your career through age you must be at least 55 so what have you been doing with property for all of that time?
dxg said:
I came across this great thought piece this morning: https://x.com/itsphasetwo/status/20127247336498425...
(Yes, it's AI and it's got a bitcoin pitch in the middle of it - but the surrounding prompted argument is valid).
It bemoans the cross-generational disparity in wealth and how, as a consequence, the current middle-aged and younger will never be able to afford a house with a garage large enough to learn by doing. And how that economic reality denies them their chance to develop the skills that the retired have the luxury of having had a lifetime to acquire.
It stuck a lot of chords with me, as I'm close to ending my career and I'm looking for somewhere with a garage large enough to work on a car inside it. And I'm realising - just like the author of this piece - that I'm about a generation too late to be able to afford that ambition. The simple ambition of being able to tinker around and learn by doing.
It's really sad. The end of something important. As the article questions - where will the next wave of engineers come from?
If you mean real, actual engineers, then I suspect they’ll come from universities around the world. (Yes, it's AI and it's got a bitcoin pitch in the middle of it - but the surrounding prompted argument is valid).
It bemoans the cross-generational disparity in wealth and how, as a consequence, the current middle-aged and younger will never be able to afford a house with a garage large enough to learn by doing. And how that economic reality denies them their chance to develop the skills that the retired have the luxury of having had a lifetime to acquire.
It stuck a lot of chords with me, as I'm close to ending my career and I'm looking for somewhere with a garage large enough to work on a car inside it. And I'm realising - just like the author of this piece - that I'm about a generation too late to be able to afford that ambition. The simple ambition of being able to tinker around and learn by doing.
It's really sad. The end of something important. As the article questions - where will the next wave of engineers come from?
Edited by dxg on Saturday 11th July 08:00
The reality of learning to fix your cars was simply being too poor to pay someone else, plus it seemed a massive waste of little money we had.
Almost every youngster bought their own cars often verging in scrap and/or needing repairs, paid for their own lessons and test and insured their old bangers often via back street advertisers in Exchange and Mart.
Drive it into the clear well lit well stocked 20' x 18' garage over the pit Claude, in our dreams, we fixed the things in the road outside our small first homes or outside the council garages if you had a mate luckly enough to be able to rent one.
Out in the blazing heat the pouring rain or ice and snow we'd somehow get by, almost all substantial parts came from the scrap yard, scambling over and under piled up scrappers lying in 6" of flood mud and take out the parts we needed.
Pit? very rare, 4 post lifter? like rocking house manure, for welding etc we'd sling a rope around the B pillar throw it over the roof the car attach to a decent car and drag the weld car half over on its side to its point of no return, block it in place with a couple of scaffold poles and work away.
Almost every youngster bought their own cars often verging in scrap and/or needing repairs, paid for their own lessons and test and insured their old bangers often via back street advertisers in Exchange and Mart.
Drive it into the clear well lit well stocked 20' x 18' garage over the pit Claude, in our dreams, we fixed the things in the road outside our small first homes or outside the council garages if you had a mate luckly enough to be able to rent one.
Out in the blazing heat the pouring rain or ice and snow we'd somehow get by, almost all substantial parts came from the scrap yard, scambling over and under piled up scrappers lying in 6" of flood mud and take out the parts we needed.
Pit? very rare, 4 post lifter? like rocking house manure, for welding etc we'd sling a rope around the B pillar throw it over the roof the car attach to a decent car and drag the weld car half over on its side to its point of no return, block it in place with a couple of scaffold poles and work away.
People in general have no interest in doing anything for themselves these days. I get the impression from my friends (40s) that many of them see DIY or fixing cars as a little "below them" but they still have the audacity to complain when a tradesman charges them £xxxx to do a job which they could probably do themselves.
So I don't think the lack of garage is the issue (I started fixing cars on a gravel drive), it's the lack of interest
So I don't think the lack of garage is the issue (I started fixing cars on a gravel drive), it's the lack of interest
I didn't have a garage till i was 37, I managed to fix cars, change gearboxes and engines in car parks just fine. I have a double garage now and a separate workshop, I still fix cars on the drive.
I have done all kinds of DIY over the years without a garage or workshop.
What a load of rubbish.
I have done all kinds of DIY over the years without a garage or workshop.
What a load of rubbish.
ARH said:
I didn't have a garage till i was 37, I managed to fix cars, change gearboxes and engines in car parks just fine. I have a double garage now and a separate workshop, I still fix cars on the drive.
I have done all kinds of DIY over the years without a garage or workshop.
What a load of rubbish.
This ^I have done all kinds of DIY over the years without a garage or workshop.
What a load of rubbish.
Most people in previous generations haven't had access to garages and yet people learned to fix things and we produced engineers.
LennyM1984 said:
People in general have no interest in doing anything for themselves these days. I get the impression from my friends (40s) that many of them see DIY or fixing cars as a little "below them" but they still have the audacity to complain when a tradesman charges them £xxxx to do a job which they could probably do themselves.
So I don't think the lack of garage is the issue (I started fixing cars on a gravel drive), it's the lack of interest
I am the complete opposite. I will look down at people who are incapable of even changing a light bulb. So I don't think the lack of garage is the issue (I started fixing cars on a gravel drive), it's the lack of interest
It is a growing trend however. My father was in the Royal Signals and then later ICL computers which later became Fujitsu. He was a computer engineer consultant so was very mechanically minded. It was pretty obvious that I would follow with the mechanical mindset from my father.
Like others have said here I never had a garage when I first started messing about with cars and even the one I have now I cannot really do much inside although it does house one of my cars.
The job market has changed a lot over the years and people become less and less interested in sorting out their own problems. They rather work for free and give that money to someone to do it for them instead of learning the skill to do it themselves.
BricktopST205 said:
LennyM1984 said:
People in general have no interest in doing anything for themselves these days. I get the impression from my friends (40s) that many of them see DIY or fixing cars as a little "below them" but they still have the audacity to complain when a tradesman charges them £xxxx to do a job which they could probably do themselves.
So I don't think the lack of garage is the issue (I started fixing cars on a gravel drive), it's the lack of interest
I am the complete opposite. I will look down at people who are incapable of even changing a light bulb. So I don't think the lack of garage is the issue (I started fixing cars on a gravel drive), it's the lack of interest
It is a growing trend however. My father was in the Royal Signals and then later ICL computers which later became Fujitsu. He was a computer engineer consultant so was very mechanically minded. It was pretty obvious that I would follow with the mechanical mindset from my father.
Like others have said here I never had a garage when I first started messing about with cars and even the one I have now I cannot really do much inside although it does house one of my cars.
The job market has changed a lot over the years and people become less and less interested in sorting out their own problems. They rather work for free and give that money to someone to do it for them instead of learning the skill to do it themselves.
How many history and art degrees do we really need.
BricktopST205 said:
LennyM1984 said:
People in general have no interest in doing anything for themselves these days. I get the impression from my friends (40s) that many of them see DIY or fixing cars as a little "below them" but they still have the audacity to complain when a tradesman charges them £xxxx to do a job which they could probably do themselves.
So I don't think the lack of garage is the issue (I started fixing cars on a gravel drive), it's the lack of interest
I am the complete opposite. I will look down at people who are incapable of even changing a light bulb. So I don't think the lack of garage is the issue (I started fixing cars on a gravel drive), it's the lack of interest
It is a growing trend however. My father was in the Royal Signals and then later ICL computers which later became Fujitsu. He was a computer engineer consultant so was very mechanically minded. It was pretty obvious that I would follow with the mechanical mindset from my father.
Like others have said here I never had a garage when I first started messing about with cars and even the one I have now I cannot really do much inside although it does house one of my cars.
The job market has changed a lot over the years and people become less and less interested in sorting out their own problems. They rather work for free and give that money to someone to do it for them instead of learning the skill to do it themselves.
Priorities have changed, people don't work on cars themselves any more, I can't remember the last time I saw someone wash their car either, they go to the car wash.
My children who's ages range from 40 to 28 have no interest, they only open the bonnet when it stops working and dump it outside my house to be fixed.
I've not used a garage for over 30 years, my dad who was an engineer taught me the basics from a young age and from there I'm self taught, no pit or 4 post lift, scrap yards, a good set of tools, a manual from Haynes.
It all comes down to attitude, I can see why people wouldn't want to self spanner, but don't moan about the price of garages and parts if you just can't be bothered to learn.
My children who's ages range from 40 to 28 have no interest, they only open the bonnet when it stops working and dump it outside my house to be fixed.
I've not used a garage for over 30 years, my dad who was an engineer taught me the basics from a young age and from there I'm self taught, no pit or 4 post lift, scrap yards, a good set of tools, a manual from Haynes.
It all comes down to attitude, I can see why people wouldn't want to self spanner, but don't moan about the price of garages and parts if you just can't be bothered to learn.
Where I live all the houses have driveways and garages these were built from the mid 90's, some are integral but most are detached, myself I had a double built with a nice workshop stuck on the side...bliss for me.
Most of the new build around here have all tiny integral garages where you would struggle to park a car never mind work on one, plus the outside space is limited by the plot size being so small, they have tiny drives one car maximum.
Sadly though the young team are just not interested in cars, bikes or anything mechanical, if its not connected to the internet then its no use to them...its hard enough trying to speak to some of them as they just won't engage with you.
I put this down to not having the working background that we had, when I was doing my apprenticeship in 1984 the Dockyard I worked in had around 6000 people in it, all sorts of very clever experienced guys who knew their stuff, we were put with a tradesman "your journeyman" and they taught you everything you needed to know...not just your job but life stuff too.
The UK doesn't have much of this anymore, yes there are a few exceptions but it was everywhere back then, we desperately need to get back to this way of working...hands on real jobs paying good wages, the youngsters need to be pushed into this instead of doing nonsense university degree's they can't get jobs for.
Most of the new build around here have all tiny integral garages where you would struggle to park a car never mind work on one, plus the outside space is limited by the plot size being so small, they have tiny drives one car maximum.
Sadly though the young team are just not interested in cars, bikes or anything mechanical, if its not connected to the internet then its no use to them...its hard enough trying to speak to some of them as they just won't engage with you.
I put this down to not having the working background that we had, when I was doing my apprenticeship in 1984 the Dockyard I worked in had around 6000 people in it, all sorts of very clever experienced guys who knew their stuff, we were put with a tradesman "your journeyman" and they taught you everything you needed to know...not just your job but life stuff too.
The UK doesn't have much of this anymore, yes there are a few exceptions but it was everywhere back then, we desperately need to get back to this way of working...hands on real jobs paying good wages, the youngsters need to be pushed into this instead of doing nonsense university degree's they can't get jobs for.
I know plenty of people of all ages who have no interest in fixing anything and even less ability. My Brother in law had a loo roll holder falling off his wall last time I was there, he said it would have to stay that way till he had enough stuff broken to get a handyman in. I said I will fix it, get a screwdriver. He didn't have one so went to one of his neighbours to borrow one. 61 years old and not even got a screwdriver.
My great nephew (24 years old) is a software engineer yet when his girlfriends laptop needed a new hard drive he asked me to fit one for him. He has never looked under the bonnet of his car, when it needs servicing he just phones someone up, they collect and return it serviced and clean. He asked me once if I used to be a mechanic as I was fixing my car, was shocked that I had taught myself how to fix cars.
I do wonder sometimes how much stuff people, who can't fix things, have that's broken in their lives, be it houses cars or anything really. I seem to have to fix something every week.
My great nephew (24 years old) is a software engineer yet when his girlfriends laptop needed a new hard drive he asked me to fit one for him. He has never looked under the bonnet of his car, when it needs servicing he just phones someone up, they collect and return it serviced and clean. He asked me once if I used to be a mechanic as I was fixing my car, was shocked that I had taught myself how to fix cars.
I do wonder sometimes how much stuff people, who can't fix things, have that's broken in their lives, be it houses cars or anything really. I seem to have to fix something every week.
Pitre said:
I think it's should be illegal to own a car and house with a garage and not use the garage to house the car.
Too many people use a perfectly good garage to fill with their crap.
The issue is that modern cars are often too big to fit in a garage. Too many people use a perfectly good garage to fill with their crap.
In my case some of that 'crap' includes my tools. No room to manoeuvre in the garage but currently in the process of swapping the shocks of a car on my driveway.
Clad-Hach said:
Where I live all the houses have driveways and garages these were built from the mid 90's, some are integral but most are detached, myself I had a double built with a nice workshop stuck on the side...bliss for me.
Most of the new build around here have all tiny integral garages where you would struggle to park a car never mind work on one, plus the outside space is limited by the plot size being so small, they have tiny drives one car maximum.
Sadly though the young team are just not interested in cars, bikes or anything mechanical, if its not connected to the internet then its no use to them...its hard enough trying to speak to some of them as they just won't engage with you.
I put this down to not having the working background that we had, when I was doing my apprenticeship in 1984 the Dockyard I worked in had around 6000 people in it, all sorts of very clever experienced guys who knew their stuff, we were put with a tradesman "your journeyman" and they taught you everything you needed to know...not just your job but life stuff too.
The UK doesn't have much of this anymore, yes there are a few exceptions but it was everywhere back then, we desperately need to get back to this way of working...hands on real jobs paying good wages, the youngsters need to be pushed into this instead of doing nonsense university degree's they can't get jobs for.
This, last sentence especially 1000 upticks.Most of the new build around here have all tiny integral garages where you would struggle to park a car never mind work on one, plus the outside space is limited by the plot size being so small, they have tiny drives one car maximum.
Sadly though the young team are just not interested in cars, bikes or anything mechanical, if its not connected to the internet then its no use to them...its hard enough trying to speak to some of them as they just won't engage with you.
I put this down to not having the working background that we had, when I was doing my apprenticeship in 1984 the Dockyard I worked in had around 6000 people in it, all sorts of very clever experienced guys who knew their stuff, we were put with a tradesman "your journeyman" and they taught you everything you needed to know...not just your job but life stuff too.
The UK doesn't have much of this anymore, yes there are a few exceptions but it was everywhere back then, we desperately need to get back to this way of working...hands on real jobs paying good wages, the youngsters need to be pushed into this instead of doing nonsense university degree's they can't get jobs for.
Catch 22, if we don't have the cheap commercial power what's left of our industrial capacity will fade away to nought, if we have no industry we don't have any possibility of training up the next generation in hands on technical skills, once a generation is missed who's going to teach the next.
Could write a book on the dumbing down thats gone on in my humble trucking sector, with results that should have been obvious to anyone with an ounce but like our govts of the last 40 years future plans are till the next career shift or the next election no one's planning for reality in 10 or 30 years time.
Oddly enough our local electrical contractors air conditioning and solar battery sytem company established many years train up from within via proper apprenticeships for sparkies etc, one of the reasons we were glad to give them the business when we had aircon and solar installed, the work done is superb and we're happy to help support such a business ethos.
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