What happened to promotions?
Discussion
I started work in the early 90's and have memories of mum and dad working etc, you were always hearing about so and so being promoted, gets a bigger office, a nicer car etc.
When was the last time anyone heard of anyone being pulled into an office and told, "you're doing a great job you are now a senior sales executive" or similar ?
I work for the civil service now and if you don't want to stay at the same pay grade for your whole life you've gotta bend over backwards, complete a 500 word personal statement, submit examples of why you think you deserve the next spot up, then go through a sifting panel, get scored against countless other candidates (read: apply for a new job) and then get turned down numerous times because you haven't perfectly matched your examples to their 'success profiles' ?
When was the last time anyone heard of anyone being pulled into an office and told, "you're doing a great job you are now a senior sales executive" or similar ?
I work for the civil service now and if you don't want to stay at the same pay grade for your whole life you've gotta bend over backwards, complete a 500 word personal statement, submit examples of why you think you deserve the next spot up, then go through a sifting panel, get scored against countless other candidates (read: apply for a new job) and then get turned down numerous times because you haven't perfectly matched your examples to their 'success profiles' ?
Pixelpeep Electric said:
I started work in the early 90's and have memories of mum and dad working etc, you were always hearing about so and so being promoted, gets a bigger office, a nicer car etc.
When was the last time anyone heard of anyone being pulled into an office and told, "you're doing a great job you are now a senior sales executive" or similar ?
I work for the civil service now and if you don't want to stay at the same pay grade for your whole life you've gotta bend over backwards, complete a 500 word personal statement, submit examples of why you think you deserve the next spot up, then go through a sifting panel, get scored against countless other candidates (read: apply for a new job) and then get turned down numerous times because you haven't perfectly matched your examples to their 'success profiles' ?
From that post it looks to me that the civil service employs people simply to judge other employees on their capabilities, suitability for promotion etc, and those judging have put as much criteria in the way so as to maintain their own taxpayer funded jobs. Why am I not surprised by this? Who judges the judges for their promotion?When was the last time anyone heard of anyone being pulled into an office and told, "you're doing a great job you are now a senior sales executive" or similar ?
I work for the civil service now and if you don't want to stay at the same pay grade for your whole life you've gotta bend over backwards, complete a 500 word personal statement, submit examples of why you think you deserve the next spot up, then go through a sifting panel, get scored against countless other candidates (read: apply for a new job) and then get turned down numerous times because you haven't perfectly matched your examples to their 'success profiles' ?
R.
I got pulled into a call 2 months ago, told congrats you're now IT Service manager for our international ops, was previously supervisor/business partner mixed role. Was a complete surprise - new role created, nice bump to manager level and the perks/stress/work that come with it. Not something I was looking for, or asked for, and have been at my level for 15 years happily doing mix of roles so was planning on just maintaining next few years but they upset all that 
. I accepted of course, I took it as a nice vote of confidence.
It means focussing more on IT service instead of business partnering but it's my core background so again happy with that.
. I accepted of course, I took it as a nice vote of confidence. It means focussing more on IT service instead of business partnering but it's my core background so again happy with that.
The public sector has always been like that, even worse outside of London. Regular promotions used to be a thing in the consulting world where they would rush people from grad to senior manager in 8 years because they can charge more for them but covid and Ai has put the brakes on that somewhat. Agree with the poster above that you need to move jobs more often than not these days to get "promoted". The days of sitting in one company and expecting to move up the ladder step by step have been over for some time. I have only ever been promoted in house once. Every other jump has been through moving somewhere else. Personally I think a work environment where you stay in the same company for years and years waiting for the nod would be hell on earth. Variety of experience is good. I guess this also rubs off on me when acting as a recruiter. I would rather recruit someone that has a CV showing progression through job moves to other companies as it shows a wider experience to me. Someone sitting in the same company is potentially repeating the same year of experience over and over.
The traditional 'work-hard, do well, then step up' approach has been shown to be flawed.
There's an old book called The Peter Principle that observes this approach ends up with employees rising to a level of incompetence having started from a point of 'super competency'. On other words, the skills in one job do not necessarily translate to another.
As the OP mentions, the Civil Service was where this linear progression was widely practiced and where its limitations were most felt; otherwise perfectly good middle managers finding themselves in more senior management roles for which they are unsuitable. At some point in the recent past, this was recognised and people were recruited into senior positions from outside of the organisation but whose skills were better suited to such roles. This causes its own problems...
I have friends who are or were in the Police and became increasingly frustrated at Uni-grads with no beat experience being appointed to roles they felt they had a better claim to. So you have the risk or lowering morale and in the case of the Police, insubordination. But, given the practice continues, suggests either they're worked out how to manage this or the benefits outweigh the negatives.
There's an old book called The Peter Principle that observes this approach ends up with employees rising to a level of incompetence having started from a point of 'super competency'. On other words, the skills in one job do not necessarily translate to another.
As the OP mentions, the Civil Service was where this linear progression was widely practiced and where its limitations were most felt; otherwise perfectly good middle managers finding themselves in more senior management roles for which they are unsuitable. At some point in the recent past, this was recognised and people were recruited into senior positions from outside of the organisation but whose skills were better suited to such roles. This causes its own problems...
I have friends who are or were in the Police and became increasingly frustrated at Uni-grads with no beat experience being appointed to roles they felt they had a better claim to. So you have the risk or lowering morale and in the case of the Police, insubordination. But, given the practice continues, suggests either they're worked out how to manage this or the benefits outweigh the negatives.
Pixelpeep Electric said:
I started work in the early 90's and have memories of mum and dad working etc, you were always hearing about so and so being promoted, gets a bigger office, a nicer car etc.
When was the last time anyone heard of anyone being pulled into an office and told, "you're doing a great job you are now a senior sales executive" or similar ?
I work for the civil service now and if you don't want to stay at the same pay grade for your whole life you've gotta bend over backwards, complete a 500 word personal statement, submit examples of why you think you deserve the next spot up, then go through a sifting panel, get scored against countless other candidates (read: apply for a new job) and then get turned down numerous times because you haven't perfectly matched your examples to their 'success profiles' ?
The private sector has a LOT more flexibility in changing the org structure and or pay/job titles. The public sector is hamstrung in thatWhen was the last time anyone heard of anyone being pulled into an office and told, "you're doing a great job you are now a senior sales executive" or similar ?
I work for the civil service now and if you don't want to stay at the same pay grade for your whole life you've gotta bend over backwards, complete a 500 word personal statement, submit examples of why you think you deserve the next spot up, then go through a sifting panel, get scored against countless other candidates (read: apply for a new job) and then get turned down numerous times because you haven't perfectly matched your examples to their 'success profiles' ?
- Org structures tend to be relatively fixed
- Pay & reward options are fixed
- Application processes can be quite rigid.
If you want to get promoted you need to play the game. Also, in the CS, promotion is easier if you're willing to move between different departments. This does mean a huge loss of organisational knowledge when everybody keeps moving around every six months, and the new people don't know what the previous incumbents were working on so there's a steep learning curve, lots of frustration and additional cost and probably explains why central Govt aren't the most efficient of organisations.
Countdown said:
The private sector has a LOT more flexibility in changing the org structure and or pay/job titles. The public sector is hamstrung in that
- Org structures tend to be relatively fixed
- Pay & reward options are fixed
- Application processes can be quite rigid.
If you want to get promoted you need to play the game. Also, in the CS, promotion is easier if you're willing to move between different departments. This does mean a huge loss of organisational knowledge when everybody keeps moving around every six months, and the new people don't know what the previous incumbents were working on so there's a steep learning curve, lots of frustration and additional cost and probably explains why central Govt aren't the most efficient of organisations.
And because public sector staff seem to think that a '500 word personal statement' is akin to climbing Everest - Org structures tend to be relatively fixed
- Pay & reward options are fixed
- Application processes can be quite rigid.
If you want to get promoted you need to play the game. Also, in the CS, promotion is easier if you're willing to move between different departments. This does mean a huge loss of organisational knowledge when everybody keeps moving around every six months, and the new people don't know what the previous incumbents were working on so there's a steep learning curve, lots of frustration and additional cost and probably explains why central Govt aren't the most efficient of organisations.
Sycamore said:
And because public sector staff seem to think that a '500 word personal statement' is akin to climbing Everest
I don't remember having to do a "personal statement" but there has always been a Covering letter where you set out why you were a good fit for the job. Anyway with ChatGPT I would have thought it would be exceptionally easy to get over that hurdle.There are a number of factors at work here.
1. Pre globalisation most companies had a largely local workforce, weren't trading internationally too much and most roles were therefore promoted in that office. Now if I have a more senior role open, I might place it in any of the 27 EU countries or where ever.
2. Relationships - again prior to globalisation and certainly digitalisation, most business relationship where face to face, this meant being liked, a good chap and clubbable was a criteria for promotion. This is no longer the case (still relevant but far far less important)
3. Transparency - previously a tap on the shoulder with a glass a sherry in hand meant you'd got the job. Now many roles need an internal panel, selection criteria and actual capability.
4. We largely have flatter organisations, so less spans of control and certainly fewer pure supervisor/manager roles. In my part of the world we are only five levels from Exec to First line and thats a global function.
I suspect more people APPLY for internal roles now, very few are invited.
1. Pre globalisation most companies had a largely local workforce, weren't trading internationally too much and most roles were therefore promoted in that office. Now if I have a more senior role open, I might place it in any of the 27 EU countries or where ever.
2. Relationships - again prior to globalisation and certainly digitalisation, most business relationship where face to face, this meant being liked, a good chap and clubbable was a criteria for promotion. This is no longer the case (still relevant but far far less important)
3. Transparency - previously a tap on the shoulder with a glass a sherry in hand meant you'd got the job. Now many roles need an internal panel, selection criteria and actual capability.
4. We largely have flatter organisations, so less spans of control and certainly fewer pure supervisor/manager roles. In my part of the world we are only five levels from Exec to First line and thats a global function.
I suspect more people APPLY for internal roles now, very few are invited.
wisbech said:
IT also has meant that organisations can be flatter, not needing so many layers of management as in the past, and/ or having more people report to one person.
Agreed.Last time I worked for a FTSE 100 company it was about 4-5 layers max between the lowest level and C level. When I was a team manager my boss reported to the CIO.
All we could do for promotion was recognise seniority within a role at the lower levels. Actual promotion was dead mans shoes. If your boss didn't leave there was nowhere to be promoted to.
98elise said:
All we could do for promotion was recognise seniority within a role at the lower levels. Actual promotion was dead mans shoes. If your boss didn't leave there was nowhere to be promoted to.
Isn't that the same in every organisation? Unless a new role is created some one has to move/retire etc.Edited by gangzoom on Tuesday 11th August 21:44
Pixelpeep Electric said:
I work for the civil service now and if you don't want to stay at the same pay grade for your whole life you've gotta bend over backwards, complete a 500 word personal statement, submit examples of why you think you deserve the next spot up, then go through a sifting panel, get scored against countless other candidates (read: apply for a new job) and then get turned down numerous times because you haven't perfectly matched your examples to their 'success profiles' ?
Surely to get a promotion you should be expected to demonstrate some new skills or justification for a step up? A 500 word personal statement and demonstrating a portfolio of work is hardly that much work?For the last few roles I've applied for I've had to demonstrate new skill sets not just in the work role but also formal additional qualifications (Diploma/Masters level) completed whilst doing the day job.
Edited by gangzoom on Tuesday 11th August 21:44
In my last private sector job , promotions happened not with necessarily title change but more so salary sometimes and more importantly bonus impact.
Almost always these were given out based on merit and existing work “ ability “ and not on any essay about how good they would or might be.
Technically said promotions could be refused and very occasionally were.
Existing workloads would continue unabated.
They could be offered or achieved within departmental teams but also to the Heads of such departments.
Not always were HR 100% supportive of this practice especially when salary bands got muddied.
Hence why bonus’s based on both measurable personal “ results “ and overall entity results were liked by them though.
Almost always these were given out based on merit and existing work “ ability “ and not on any essay about how good they would or might be.
Technically said promotions could be refused and very occasionally were.
Existing workloads would continue unabated.
They could be offered or achieved within departmental teams but also to the Heads of such departments.
Not always were HR 100% supportive of this practice especially when salary bands got muddied.
Hence why bonus’s based on both measurable personal “ results “ and overall entity results were liked by them though.
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