Do you think liberals are finally seeing their folly?
Discussion
I’m starting to get this impression from my liberal friends and acquaintances. Even they are noticing the decline in our cities and large towns.
Almost as if importing large numbers of very average people, many of whom can’t or won’t assimilate, amongst whom certain cultures have incredibly high propensity to commit crime, wasn’t perhaps such a good idea
Almost as if importing large numbers of very average people, many of whom can’t or won’t assimilate, amongst whom certain cultures have incredibly high propensity to commit crime, wasn’t perhaps such a good idea
king thread you post in.
milesgiles said:
I m starting to get this impression from my liberal friends and acquaintances. Even they are noticing the decline in our cities and large towns.
Almost as if importing large numbers of very average people, many of whom can t or won t assimilate, amongst whom certain cultures have incredibly high propensity to commit crime, wasn t perhaps such a good idea
The idea that you have friends - liberal or otherwise - is laughable.Almost as if importing large numbers of very average people, many of whom can t or won t assimilate, amongst whom certain cultures have incredibly high propensity to commit crime, wasn t perhaps such a good idea
milesgiles said:
Randy Winkman said:
As someone that's probably "a liberal" I'm looking at the USA and thinking it's definitely not me that should be seeing my folly.
We are poorer than the poorest American stateGemini claims the opposite
The UK's overall quality of life generally ranks in the top tier of US states, outperforming most when holistic human development metrics are used, while lagging behind on raw per capita income.
While headline economic figures (GDP per capita) place the UK near the bottom if treated as a US state—roughly on par with or just below Mississippi—broad Quality of Life indices tell a very different story:
Human Development Index (HDI): The UK’s HDI score (~0.940) places it in the top 10–15 US states, ranking alongside or above states like New York, Virginia, and Colorado, and well above states in the Deep South.
Health & Life Expectancy: The UK’s average life expectancy (~81–82 years) is higher than roughly 45 US states, easily topping the US national average (~77–78 years).
Safety & Crime: The UK ranks near the very top compared to US states, featuring drastically lower homicide rates and violent crime compared to almost every US state.
Work-Life Balance & Leave: The UK leads all 50 US states in statutory annual paid leave, guaranteed maternity/paternity benefits, and lower average annual working hours.
Income & Wealth: The average US state outperforms the UK in disposable income and wage levels, but median wealth per adult in the UK is higher than in the US due to lower wealth inequality
milesgiles said:
Randy Winkman said:
As someone that's probably "a liberal" I'm looking at the USA and thinking it's definitely not me that should be seeing my folly.
We are poorer than the poorest American staterscott said:
Prove that claim.
Gemini claims the opposite
The UK's overall quality of life generally ranks in the top tier of US states, outperforming most when holistic human development metrics are used, while lagging behind on raw per capita income.
While headline economic figures (GDP per capita) place the UK near the bottom if treated as a US state roughly on par with or just below Mississippi broad Quality of Life indices tell a very different story:
Human Development Index (HDI): The UK s HDI score (~0.940) places it in the top 10 15 US states, ranking alongside or above states like New York, Virginia, and Colorado, and well above states in the Deep South.
Health & Life Expectancy: The UK s average life expectancy (~81 82 years) is higher than roughly 45 US states, easily topping the US national average (~77 78 years).
Safety & Crime: The UK ranks near the very top compared to US states, featuring drastically lower homicide rates and violent crime compared to almost every US state.
Work-Life Balance & Leave: The UK leads all 50 US states in statutory annual paid leave, guaranteed maternity/paternity benefits, and lower average annual working hours.
Income & Wealth: The average US state outperforms the UK in disposable income and wage levels, but median wealth per adult in the UK is higher than in the US due to lower wealth inequality
It’s all about money and immigrants to miles.Gemini claims the opposite
The UK's overall quality of life generally ranks in the top tier of US states, outperforming most when holistic human development metrics are used, while lagging behind on raw per capita income.
While headline economic figures (GDP per capita) place the UK near the bottom if treated as a US state roughly on par with or just below Mississippi broad Quality of Life indices tell a very different story:
Human Development Index (HDI): The UK s HDI score (~0.940) places it in the top 10 15 US states, ranking alongside or above states like New York, Virginia, and Colorado, and well above states in the Deep South.
Health & Life Expectancy: The UK s average life expectancy (~81 82 years) is higher than roughly 45 US states, easily topping the US national average (~77 78 years).
Safety & Crime: The UK ranks near the very top compared to US states, featuring drastically lower homicide rates and violent crime compared to almost every US state.
Work-Life Balance & Leave: The UK leads all 50 US states in statutory annual paid leave, guaranteed maternity/paternity benefits, and lower average annual working hours.
Income & Wealth: The average US state outperforms the UK in disposable income and wage levels, but median wealth per adult in the UK is higher than in the US due to lower wealth inequality
milesgiles said:
Randy Winkman said:
As someone that's probably "a liberal" I'm looking at the USA and thinking it's definitely not me that should be seeing my folly.
We are poorer than the poorest American stateThe US is ahead of pretty much every large developed economy in GDP per capita (one selective measure). Comparing the UK to the poorest US state says at least as much about how exceptionally rich the US is as it does about the UK.
And it's a great example to bring up in a discussion about immigration... the US is literally an immigration-built country, with a foreign-born share of the population very similar to ours.
Doesn't exactly demonstrate that immigration and prosperity are incompatible, does it?
What's the next pivot? Telling us immigrations suppress UK wages to a significant degree lot when the evidence shows the opposite?
'Touch some grass', as the kids would say. Live is wonderful :-D
"Do you think conservatives are finally seeing their folly?
I'm starting to get this impression from my conservative friends and acquaintances. Even they are noticing the decline in our cities and large towns.
Almost as if tearing up the social contract, dismantling the economic bedrock of large parts of our country and its communities, disempowering the working class, turning us from a nation of citizens to a nation of consumers, letting profit motive into our social and civic institutions, letting global financial and business interests run roughshod over ordinary people and cutting provision of vital social services for short-term personal enrichment wasn't perhaps such a good idea."
See how easy it is?
Now, both those vignettes are both vastly oversimplified and have a kernel of truth. Also, I don't think milesgiles and I would have the same definition of what a liberal is.
I was going to try and expound, but I don't think there's much point. That when faced with a provincial town high street full of vape shops, kebab houses, betting terminals and suspicious non-chain convenience stores with groups of teenagers and young men hanging around with nothing to do, some wizened pensioners hobbling over broken pavement stones on a cheap walker frame, chipped e-scooters whizzing around with riders with suspiciously full backpacks making 'deliveries', a library that's only open two hours a day three days a week, a graffitied, bus stop with two services a day that leaves after everyone's gone to work and returns before anyone needs to leave, a row of shabby terraced houses turned into HMOs and a scruffy verge turned to a muddy swamp by the Latvian workers at the logistics warehouse parking on it all hours of the day because there isn't any on-site parking or effective public transport...a 'liberal' will see the result of long-term economic deprivation and the 'reactionary' will see the result of cultural poverty.
Neither may be wholly right, and they will probably disagree with the order of cause and effect.
But the idea that 'liberals' have been cheerfully ho-humming that everything's peachy until now is ludicrous. Remember when a bearded Labour leader made a speech about how immigration was harming our social and cultural fabric while only benefitting employers and the already-rich? How it was putting huge pressure on housing and medical and educational and community services? How that was causing people to feel despondent and angry and unheard?
That was nine years ago.
E:
I'm starting to get this impression from my conservative friends and acquaintances. Even they are noticing the decline in our cities and large towns.
Almost as if tearing up the social contract, dismantling the economic bedrock of large parts of our country and its communities, disempowering the working class, turning us from a nation of citizens to a nation of consumers, letting profit motive into our social and civic institutions, letting global financial and business interests run roughshod over ordinary people and cutting provision of vital social services for short-term personal enrichment wasn't perhaps such a good idea."
See how easy it is?
Now, both those vignettes are both vastly oversimplified and have a kernel of truth. Also, I don't think milesgiles and I would have the same definition of what a liberal is.
I was going to try and expound, but I don't think there's much point. That when faced with a provincial town high street full of vape shops, kebab houses, betting terminals and suspicious non-chain convenience stores with groups of teenagers and young men hanging around with nothing to do, some wizened pensioners hobbling over broken pavement stones on a cheap walker frame, chipped e-scooters whizzing around with riders with suspiciously full backpacks making 'deliveries', a library that's only open two hours a day three days a week, a graffitied, bus stop with two services a day that leaves after everyone's gone to work and returns before anyone needs to leave, a row of shabby terraced houses turned into HMOs and a scruffy verge turned to a muddy swamp by the Latvian workers at the logistics warehouse parking on it all hours of the day because there isn't any on-site parking or effective public transport...a 'liberal' will see the result of long-term economic deprivation and the 'reactionary' will see the result of cultural poverty.
Neither may be wholly right, and they will probably disagree with the order of cause and effect.
But the idea that 'liberals' have been cheerfully ho-humming that everything's peachy until now is ludicrous. Remember when a bearded Labour leader made a speech about how immigration was harming our social and cultural fabric while only benefitting employers and the already-rich? How it was putting huge pressure on housing and medical and educational and community services? How that was causing people to feel despondent and angry and unheard?
That was nine years ago.
E:
MrBogSmith said:
o what?
The US is ahead of pretty much every large developed economy in GDP per capita (one selective measure). Comparing the UK to the poorest US state says at least as much about how exceptionally rich the US is as it does about the UK.
GDP/capita figures (or GRP/capita) also hide how horrifically unequal the USA is. Mississippi might well have a GRP/capita figure higher than the UK's GDP/capita. But if you go county by county and city by city, the poorest bits of Mississippi will, in terms of both their economy and their metrics for standard of living, will be below even the worst sink estates in Britain. The figures will be skewed by a few phenomenally productive/extractive industries and a small number of wealthy individuals and families. The US is ahead of pretty much every large developed economy in GDP per capita (one selective measure). Comparing the UK to the poorest US state says at least as much about how exceptionally rich the US is as it does about the UK.
Edited by 2xChevrons on Sunday 6th September 13:17
g3org3y said:
Woke 1.0 is over.
So define woke...I'd define it as being open to other sexualities, cultures, and end to sexism and misogyny, etc... generally equal rights and fairness for all. It doesn't mean unfettered immigration and turning a blind eye to crime.
Be careful what you wish for because there's a risk that woke 1.0 is replaced by US style far right extremism.
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