Bit of a tenancy issue- failed gas safecert prior to tenancy
Discussion
Hi, wondered if anyone could offer some insight, I ll be likely onto some legal people in the morning, any recommendations appreciate!
But in the meantime, my son has a tenancy for his student house in Durham, due to move in this weekend and the tenancy started Sept 1st.
Back end of Aug landlord contacted the tenants, 4 in the house, and said the boiler service showed a fault with a valve and they d have to have it fixed. Not a massive issue at first sight.
But now, just over 3 weeks later, apparently the boiler is not fixed, needs replacing and also is going to be a bigger job as for some reason it cannot be in the loft now, it needs to go in an upstairs bedroom.
No coherent explanrion as to why and what the issue is, but we noted on the pack of docs provided back in March at signing, a gas safe cert ran out on 19th Aug. And he s asked for a new one, and landlord hasn t or cannot produce it and is now ducking calls and mails.
My suspicion is that it didn t fail its service, that it s been condemned or at least no passed safety inspection. As the tenancy began on 1st Sept, if there is no gas cert, where does he stand, legally?
I d prefer him to not move in at all until it s resolved for obvious reasons of both comfort and safety, but landlord is dragging his feet imo, 3 weeks in and they ve only had someone in yesterday.
This seems a slightly different situation that a place having a valid gas safety cert, but the boiler breaking down. It seems as though when the tenancy began, there was no safety cert in place.
First lad goes in tomorrow but is already talking of just dumping stuff and going to stay with a family member.
My lad can t do that, nearest family 2 hours away! But with no heating or hot water, it’s not really habitable??
Are they legally even allowed to move in? I suggested he get a hotel ( mentally pricey being the move in weekend) and try to claim of landlord, but if not, at least try to get his 2 weeks rent back, which is nearly 600 quid!
He doesn t want to rock the boat with the landlord, but this is both am important safety issue and we have no idea what the actual fault is and story keeps changing. He also has asked who will be doing the work next week if he is there, and he will apparently need to be in the house when they work(!) for insurance purposes, and landlord won t even say who is coming, when ans what services will be lost and for how long.
My gut feeling is we need to send a letter to landlord, but not entriely sure what to say and how to proceed.
Sorry but it s so late in the day, it s causing us some grief as we just don t know what is going on. And so,limited options now in all the uni towns, we hope it doesn t all fall over.
And yes, first months rent all paid up on time.
Any help appreciated.
Cheers
Not The Moose
But in the meantime, my son has a tenancy for his student house in Durham, due to move in this weekend and the tenancy started Sept 1st.
Back end of Aug landlord contacted the tenants, 4 in the house, and said the boiler service showed a fault with a valve and they d have to have it fixed. Not a massive issue at first sight.
But now, just over 3 weeks later, apparently the boiler is not fixed, needs replacing and also is going to be a bigger job as for some reason it cannot be in the loft now, it needs to go in an upstairs bedroom.
No coherent explanrion as to why and what the issue is, but we noted on the pack of docs provided back in March at signing, a gas safe cert ran out on 19th Aug. And he s asked for a new one, and landlord hasn t or cannot produce it and is now ducking calls and mails.
My suspicion is that it didn t fail its service, that it s been condemned or at least no passed safety inspection. As the tenancy began on 1st Sept, if there is no gas cert, where does he stand, legally?
I d prefer him to not move in at all until it s resolved for obvious reasons of both comfort and safety, but landlord is dragging his feet imo, 3 weeks in and they ve only had someone in yesterday.
This seems a slightly different situation that a place having a valid gas safety cert, but the boiler breaking down. It seems as though when the tenancy began, there was no safety cert in place.
First lad goes in tomorrow but is already talking of just dumping stuff and going to stay with a family member.
My lad can t do that, nearest family 2 hours away! But with no heating or hot water, it’s not really habitable??
Are they legally even allowed to move in? I suggested he get a hotel ( mentally pricey being the move in weekend) and try to claim of landlord, but if not, at least try to get his 2 weeks rent back, which is nearly 600 quid!
He doesn t want to rock the boat with the landlord, but this is both am important safety issue and we have no idea what the actual fault is and story keeps changing. He also has asked who will be doing the work next week if he is there, and he will apparently need to be in the house when they work(!) for insurance purposes, and landlord won t even say who is coming, when ans what services will be lost and for how long.
My gut feeling is we need to send a letter to landlord, but not entriely sure what to say and how to proceed.
Sorry but it s so late in the day, it s causing us some grief as we just don t know what is going on. And so,limited options now in all the uni towns, we hope it doesn t all fall over.
And yes, first months rent all paid up on time.
Any help appreciated.
Cheers
Not The Moose
Edited by poo at Paul's on Thursday 10th September 20:19
Sounds like the landlord is trying it on.
It is illegal to let the property without a valid gas safe certificate (among other things), so no tenancy has been created. Your son can walk away, and is entitled to have all his monies refunded. You need to remind the landlord politely of that, and see how he responds before staring on legal action.
The university will have an accommodation officer, or equivalent, who should be able to advise you, as will the council's housing department.
Realistically - and I am not in any way defending the landlord - it may be difficult to get your money back, and it depends how much time and effort you and your son want to put into it. He will have other priorities at the beginning of term, and it may be best to put it down to experience and move on. Yes it is a significant chunk of money, but it is not much in the overall scheme of things.
It is illegal to let the property without a valid gas safe certificate (among other things), so no tenancy has been created. Your son can walk away, and is entitled to have all his monies refunded. You need to remind the landlord politely of that, and see how he responds before staring on legal action.
The university will have an accommodation officer, or equivalent, who should be able to advise you, as will the council's housing department.
Realistically - and I am not in any way defending the landlord - it may be difficult to get your money back, and it depends how much time and effort you and your son want to put into it. He will have other priorities at the beginning of term, and it may be best to put it down to experience and move on. Yes it is a significant chunk of money, but it is not much in the overall scheme of things.
Hawkshaw said:
Sounds like the landlord is trying it on.
It is illegal to let the property without a valid gas safe certificate (among other things), so no tenancy has been created. Your son can walk away, and is entitled to have all his monies refunded. You need to remind the landlord politely of that, and see how he responds before staring on legal action.
The university will have an accommodation officer, or equivalent, who should be able to advise you, as will the council's housing department.
Realistically - and I am not in any way defending the landlord - it may be difficult to get your money back, and it depends how much time and effort you and your son want to put into it. He will have other priorities at the beginning of term, and it may be best to put it down to experience and move on. Yes it is a significant chunk of money, but it is not much in the overall scheme of things.
Cheers. It is illegal to let the property without a valid gas safe certificate (among other things), so no tenancy has been created. Your son can walk away, and is entitled to have all his monies refunded. You need to remind the landlord politely of that, and see how he responds before staring on legal action.
The university will have an accommodation officer, or equivalent, who should be able to advise you, as will the council's housing department.
Realistically - and I am not in any way defending the landlord - it may be difficult to get your money back, and it depends how much time and effort you and your son want to put into it. He will have other priorities at the beginning of term, and it may be best to put it down to experience and move on. Yes it is a significant chunk of money, but it is not much in the overall scheme of things.
Yes this is our thinking. At the mo I have put him on a hotel, but it s like 180 a night, so even if it s a week it s a chunk of cash.
Tbh, he doesn t really want to walk away from the tenancy as there s nowhere else to live, but we also need to get the new boiler in and signed off so it s safe, and that will take time during which he has no option than to incur significant other costs.
Thanks for confirming no gas cert means it is not actually valid tenancy, that was sort of my thinking too. Having said that, walking away is maybe not an option at this late stage!
Btw, this place is near 50k a year rent, it’s not some student dosshouse, so that also stings a bit.
a boiler can fail a gas safety cert on a bunch of things that don't make it an imminent threat - my old boiler failed one because it was producing too much of a certain gas (can't remember which, maybe carbon monoxide) up the flue - which could become dangerous if the flue became cracked. So I wouldn't feel bad about moving in for a safety reason, if you can get the cert refusal reason.
That said, there's nothing to stop a new boiler getting fitted in a new location next day, so the landlord simply needs to pull his finger out. The property can not legally be let without one, and if this is how he's acting now I'd probably recommend looking for a new place to spend the year, as he's unlikely to be responsive to other issues.
That said, there's nothing to stop a new boiler getting fitted in a new location next day, so the landlord simply needs to pull his finger out. The property can not legally be let without one, and if this is how he's acting now I'd probably recommend looking for a new place to spend the year, as he's unlikely to be responsive to other issues.
MustangGT said:
It is solely the landlord's responsibility to fix things, nothing to do with the tenant whatsoever. Remind the landlord of this and advise the LL that they are also responsible to find/pay for alternate accommodation during the period the let accommodation is unliveable.
This.I suspect the last thing you want is to walk away from the tenancy and then have last minute house hunting for student accommodation (read - whats left is left for a reason...) though this may be the easiest option (n.b. the push here is getting the landlord to buy them out as property isn't suitable).
I suspect without heat/hot water property could be regarded as uninhabitable, but forcing issue on this would need council involvement...
Without a valid gas safety certificate, tenants can't be evicted.
So the LL plausibly has responsibility to find alternative accommodation until they fix it (ok, they can get away with short periods assuming fast repair - but 3 weeks seems too slow).
I thought boilers weren't allowed in bedrooms (carbon monoxide risk) though googling suggests they can be as long as room sealed.
My guess is bedroom vs loft is that replacing the boiler in the loft will be more expensive or they have been advised that they should be insulating loft better to keep boiler within operating temperatures (and that the reason it hasn't been fixed is LL doesn't want to spend money and expects/relies on an exceptional return (See people expecting 10-15% from property as rent, ignoring that a chunk of said rent should be spent on annual maintenance, after which returns are no better than other investments... Or that said maintenance is a multi-year schedule so needs a sink fund as well)
Having said all of this, by far your best option is to talk to the university.
They will have seen accommodation go wrong regularly, usually having experts on the laws on it for supporting students and usually keep a small number of rooms in halls available for when it goes wrong - This will almost certainly be cheaper than a hotel (and therefore easier to recover from landlord)
(Its amazing how many people think students are easy targets, failing to realise that the Uni will usually support them and its student support services have seen every case before; for accommodation issues like this they could probably give you the right paperwork to claim against LL pre-filled from a stack on the accommodation offices desk because they will have do a dozen cases around this time every year...)
I suspect without heat/hot water property could be regarded as uninhabitable, but forcing issue on this would need council involvement...
Without a valid gas safety certificate, tenants can't be evicted.
So the LL plausibly has responsibility to find alternative accommodation until they fix it (ok, they can get away with short periods assuming fast repair - but 3 weeks seems too slow).
I thought boilers weren't allowed in bedrooms (carbon monoxide risk) though googling suggests they can be as long as room sealed.
My guess is bedroom vs loft is that replacing the boiler in the loft will be more expensive or they have been advised that they should be insulating loft better to keep boiler within operating temperatures (and that the reason it hasn't been fixed is LL doesn't want to spend money and expects/relies on an exceptional return (See people expecting 10-15% from property as rent, ignoring that a chunk of said rent should be spent on annual maintenance, after which returns are no better than other investments... Or that said maintenance is a multi-year schedule so needs a sink fund as well)
Having said all of this, by far your best option is to talk to the university.
They will have seen accommodation go wrong regularly, usually having experts on the laws on it for supporting students and usually keep a small number of rooms in halls available for when it goes wrong - This will almost certainly be cheaper than a hotel (and therefore easier to recover from landlord)
(Its amazing how many people think students are easy targets, failing to realise that the Uni will usually support them and its student support services have seen every case before; for accommodation issues like this they could probably give you the right paperwork to claim against LL pre-filled from a stack on the accommodation offices desk because they will have do a dozen cases around this time every year...)
poo at Paul' said:
But now, just over 3 weeks later, apparently the boiler is not fixed, needs replacing and also is going to be a bigger job as for some reason it cannot be in the loft now, it needs to go in an upstairs bedroom.
Gas Boiler in a bedroom! not my bedroom. FMS.Edited by poo at Paul's on Thursday 10th September 20:19
At the inquest the Coroner said......
Not sure why straight away the landlord is dodgy etc. Maybe the gas safe inspection was being done in conjunction with the boiler service and as the boiler has a fault a new cert cannot be issued. It seems the landlord is already going ahead with a new instillation however regs have changed so it looks like it'll have to be installed in one of the other rooms.
Now before the powerfully build directors smash the doors in dominating the stairs whilst hurling redbull cans at all and sundry how about communicating in a way that normal human beings do before Junior starts his term trying to find somewhere to live as Daddy stamped his feet a bit much!
Now before the powerfully build directors smash the doors in dominating the stairs whilst hurling redbull cans at all and sundry how about communicating in a way that normal human beings do before Junior starts his term trying to find somewhere to live as Daddy stamped his feet a bit much!
There's a few issues here.
Are there any other gas appliances in the property? If so then a GSC is needed for those. That's the law. For all you know the boiler is capped and therefore doesn't need a GSC.
Of course it then brings the subject up of no hot water, IMHO this is ok for a night or two if the boiler does need replacing, but certainly not three weeks on. Was it an agency let? Or direct from landlord?
Course of action really depends on two key questions. Are there other gas appliances? Is the boiler feed capped?
Are there any other gas appliances in the property? If so then a GSC is needed for those. That's the law. For all you know the boiler is capped and therefore doesn't need a GSC.
Of course it then brings the subject up of no hot water, IMHO this is ok for a night or two if the boiler does need replacing, but certainly not three weeks on. Was it an agency let? Or direct from landlord?
Course of action really depends on two key questions. Are there other gas appliances? Is the boiler feed capped?
kestral said:
poo at Paul' said:
But now, just over 3 weeks later, apparently the boiler is not fixed, needs replacing and also is going to be a bigger job as for some reason it cannot be in the loft now, it needs to go in an upstairs bedroom.
Gas Boiler in a bedroom! not my bedroom. FMS.Edited by poo at Paul's on Thursday 10th September 20:19
At the inquest the Coroner said......
wolf1 said:
Not sure why straight away the landlord is dodgy etc. Maybe the gas safe inspection was being done in conjunction with the boiler service and as the boiler has a fault a new cert cannot be issued. It seems the landlord is already going ahead with a new instillation however regs have changed so it looks like it'll have to be installed in one of the other rooms.
Now before the powerfully build directors smash the doors in dominating the stairs whilst hurling redbull cans at all and sundry how about communicating in a way that normal human beings do before Junior starts his term trying to find somewhere to live as Daddy stamped his feet a bit much!
The bit you’re missing is the 3 weeks of nonsense so far, you’re likely correct that the failed service caused the issue, but that was 3 weeks ago and the tenancy started 2 weeks ago and still no boiler. This is 4 hours from us, and with no idea when the boiler will be moved and fixed, I’ve had to book a hotel now, but for how long we don’t know. The hotels are bonkers prices, several hundred a night. Now before the powerfully build directors smash the doors in dominating the stairs whilst hurling redbull cans at all and sundry how about communicating in a way that normal human beings do before Junior starts his term trying to find somewhere to live as Daddy stamped his feet a bit much!
I think the main issue here is trying to find out if legally the tenants can move in with no safety certificate. And by doing so do they compromise their rights to restitution in the future, eg are they accepting the property as is if they move in. For all we know, in 3 weeks time it still may not be fixed.
The tenants have done nothing wrong so far, they’ve paid and cannot use the house, and are not using the house. But time now run out and options now limited.
Oh and it’s not daddy stomping his feet at all, it’s daddy paying for it and being guarantor for the tendency also, so if the tenants clear off and stop paying, it’s dad on the line for the cash, so I do have a direct interest in this tenancy.
3 weeks of being patient and nice about it, had basically been spat back in our faces and nothing has actually been done to replace this boiler or fix it. Now landlord won’t answer any questions. We don’t even know if there is water on in the property, or if then house is ‘safe’ and the boiler isolated…we have asked but no reply. Would you move in to such a place? Course you wouldn’t.
And now, sadly, time has run out, my lad has to be there on Monday. He’s already missed two job interviews this week as he was meant to be moving in last weekend, so he compromised himself to accommodate, and still we are no further on, in fact worse than a week ago and now boiler needs to move.
This is why it’s now last chance saloon a bit.
I think we’ve acted very reasonably, and want to get some advice and input as to anything we’ve missed, or any avenue to explore, that’s all.
Sir Bagalot said:
There's a few issues here.
Are there any other gas appliances in the property? If so then a GSC is needed for those. That's the law. For all you know the boiler is capped and therefore doesn't need a GSC.
Of course it then brings the subject up of no hot water, IMHO this is ok for a night or two if the boiler does need replacing, but certainly not three weeks on. Was it an agency let? Or direct from landlord?
Course of action really depends on two key questions. Are there other gas appliances? Is the boiler feed capped?
We think it is gas cooking, so likely only the boiler, but again don t know for sure and the house is 4 hours away! Are there any other gas appliances in the property? If so then a GSC is needed for those. That's the law. For all you know the boiler is capped and therefore doesn't need a GSC.
Of course it then brings the subject up of no hot water, IMHO this is ok for a night or two if the boiler does need replacing, but certainly not three weeks on. Was it an agency let? Or direct from landlord?
Course of action really depends on two key questions. Are there other gas appliances? Is the boiler feed capped?
So, if the boiler has been isolated, and made safe, does that mean they don t need a GSC at all? Presumably part of that is making the gas supply side safe, or disconnecting.
It was advertised through ans agent, tenancy all arrange via agent, but apparently managed direct by landlord. We have spoken to agent today who was quite shocked and rather sheepish, but simply referred us to the landlord, and confirmed they had not been issued with a new GsC which they then have to put up on the online portal that tenants can access.
On the gsc, if the boiler is capped, does that mean no gsc required, or a gsx can be issued to say ‘gas is safe’ .?
Edited by poo at Paul's on Friday 11th September 15:20
qwerty360 said:
I suspect the last thing you want is to walk away from the tenancy and then have last minute house hunting for student accommodation (read - whats left is left for a reason...) though this may be the easiest option (n.b. the push here is getting the landlord to buy them out as property isn't suitable).
I suspect without heat/hot water property could be regarded as uninhabitable, but forcing issue on this would need council involvement...
Without a valid gas safety certificate, tenants can't be evicted.
So the LL plausibly has responsibility to find alternative accommodation until they fix it (ok, they can get away with short periods assuming fast repair - but 3 weeks seems too slow).
I thought boilers weren't allowed in bedrooms (carbon monoxide risk) though googling suggests they can be as long as room sealed.
My guess is bedroom vs loft is that replacing the boiler in the loft will be more expensive or they have been advised that they should be insulating loft better to keep boiler within operating temperatures (and that the reason it hasn't been fixed is LL doesn't want to spend money and expects/relies on an exceptional return (See people expecting 10-15% from property as rent, ignoring that a chunk of said rent should be spent on annual maintenance, after which returns are no better than other investments... Or that said maintenance is a multi-year schedule so needs a sink fund as well)
Having said all of this, by far your best option is to talk to the university.
They will have seen accommodation go wrong regularly, usually having experts on the laws on it for supporting students and usually keep a small number of rooms in halls available for when it goes wrong - This will almost certainly be cheaper than a hotel (and therefore easier to recover from landlord)
(Its amazing how many people think students are easy targets, failing to realise that the Uni will usually support them and its student support services have seen every case before; for accommodation issues like this they could probably give you the right paperwork to claim against LL pre-filled from a stack on the accommodation offices desk because they will have do a dozen cases around this time every year...)
Thanks, correct on most counts. Sadly uni not really ‘open’ as such at the mo, so limited help. So far he has been referred to Shelter for help! I suspect without heat/hot water property could be regarded as uninhabitable, but forcing issue on this would need council involvement...
Without a valid gas safety certificate, tenants can't be evicted.
So the LL plausibly has responsibility to find alternative accommodation until they fix it (ok, they can get away with short periods assuming fast repair - but 3 weeks seems too slow).
I thought boilers weren't allowed in bedrooms (carbon monoxide risk) though googling suggests they can be as long as room sealed.
My guess is bedroom vs loft is that replacing the boiler in the loft will be more expensive or they have been advised that they should be insulating loft better to keep boiler within operating temperatures (and that the reason it hasn't been fixed is LL doesn't want to spend money and expects/relies on an exceptional return (See people expecting 10-15% from property as rent, ignoring that a chunk of said rent should be spent on annual maintenance, after which returns are no better than other investments... Or that said maintenance is a multi-year schedule so needs a sink fund as well)
Having said all of this, by far your best option is to talk to the university.
They will have seen accommodation go wrong regularly, usually having experts on the laws on it for supporting students and usually keep a small number of rooms in halls available for when it goes wrong - This will almost certainly be cheaper than a hotel (and therefore easier to recover from landlord)
(Its amazing how many people think students are easy targets, failing to realise that the Uni will usually support them and its student support services have seen every case before; for accommodation issues like this they could probably give you the right paperwork to claim against LL pre-filled from a stack on the accommodation offices desk because they will have do a dozen cases around this time every year...)
It was rented via uni agents but is not a ‘uni’ run house. And the tenancy is direct with landlord, agents know of the issue but cannot help.
The university should be able to help as they usually vet all landlords and their lets. They should be able to put some pressure on the landlord. While the Uni is not fully open as you state, the people looking after these things are/should be working, I know all our admin staff are in, working, as freshers week is only a couple of weeks away.
This LL has licensed HMO properties with gas boilers in bedrooms, and all with working carbon monoxide detectors, so not a safety issue.
This time of year, especially with the recent hot weather, working boilers are neither a top priority for tenant/s, and also for LL’s either a quick fix or a quick replacement. I once had a plastic push fit compression joint fail, the same flooding a ground floor shower room, the three tenants I invited and paid for them to enrol in a local gym, the same for taking showers etc.
The OP’s son should make all communications in writing, and if required seek advice from the local university’s student accommodation advice office, and/or the local council’s environmental housing department. As for any gas boiler safety issue, then the Nation Gas Safety tel: 0800 111 999 will immediately respond to a call out and capped off either the either the boiler, and/or the mains gas supply.
This time of year, especially with the recent hot weather, working boilers are neither a top priority for tenant/s, and also for LL’s either a quick fix or a quick replacement. I once had a plastic push fit compression joint fail, the same flooding a ground floor shower room, the three tenants I invited and paid for them to enrol in a local gym, the same for taking showers etc.
The OP’s son should make all communications in writing, and if required seek advice from the local university’s student accommodation advice office, and/or the local council’s environmental housing department. As for any gas boiler safety issue, then the Nation Gas Safety tel: 0800 111 999 will immediately respond to a call out and capped off either the either the boiler, and/or the mains gas supply.
poo at Paul's said:
Sir Bagalot said:
There's a few issues here.
Are there any other gas appliances in the property? If so then a GSC is needed for those. That's the law. For all you know the boiler is capped and therefore doesn't need a GSC.
Of course it then brings the subject up of no hot water, IMHO this is ok for a night or two if the boiler does need replacing, but certainly not three weeks on. Was it an agency let? Or direct from landlord?
Course of action really depends on two key questions. Are there other gas appliances? Is the boiler feed capped?
We think it is gas cooking, so likely only the boiler, but again don t know for sure and the house is 4 hours away! Are there any other gas appliances in the property? If so then a GSC is needed for those. That's the law. For all you know the boiler is capped and therefore doesn't need a GSC.
Of course it then brings the subject up of no hot water, IMHO this is ok for a night or two if the boiler does need replacing, but certainly not three weeks on. Was it an agency let? Or direct from landlord?
Course of action really depends on two key questions. Are there other gas appliances? Is the boiler feed capped?
So, if the boiler has been isolated, and made safe, does that mean they don t need a GSC at all? Presumably part of that is making the gas supply side safe, or disconnecting.
It was advertised through ans agent, tenancy all arrange via agent, but apparently managed direct by landlord. We have spoken to agent today who was quite shocked and rather sheepish, but simply referred us to the landlord, and confirmed they had not been issued with a new GsC which they then have to put up on the online portal that tenants can access.
On the gsc, if the boiler is capped, does that mean no gsc required, or a gsx can be issued to say gas is safe .?
Edited by poo at Paul's on Friday 11th September 15:20
3 weeks to be honest is ample time to sort a boiler replacement. Chat to landlord through messaging and get answers. House not as advertised
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff