Legislation for "maintainability".

[BikeBikeBIke]

We have mandated vehicle features for "safety" and for the environment.

How about legislation to force "maintainability".

So EGR valves/turbos whatever would need to be highly accessible and easy to clean out. I'm not sure how I'd define maintainability but I can certainly see it when it's missing!

[vikingaero]

I would have mandated accessibility to replace light bulbs, but lights are more irreplaceable LEDs now.

[Richard-D]

I'd define it more by information and software accessibility on a modern car. Accessibility of components is tricky. Of the items you mention, the turbo and egr components really need to be positioned for performance and efficiency, which isn't necessarily somewhere that works well for access.

I agree with your sentiment as I think things are moving away from where they should be again (after inroads were made in the 90s with OBD etc.).

[plfrench]

Not much point legislating for maintainability on tech that has ceased to be relevant and won t be produced for much longer.

In the next era of cars, there is absolutely legislation for manufacturers to ensure the batteries they are bringing to market in EVs are repairable, recyclable and are the responsibility of the manufacturer at end of life - Extended Producer Responsibility (EPR). The EU require all EVs sold from Feb next year onwards to have digital product passports to fit in with this and support traceability throughout their life.

UK will probably (seeing as their won t be enough time to work out what else to do but copy the EU as if normally the way since we gave up our seat at the table) do our usual trick and introduce the same legislation but change a word so it s completely UK driven, honest guv Digital Product Records (DPR) are most likely the name we ll give them rather than DPP.

[BikeBikeBIke]

plfrench said:

Not much point legislating for maintainability on tech that has ceased to be relevant and won t be produced for much longer.

In the next era of cars, there is absolutely legislation for manufacturers to ensure the batteries they are bringing to market in EVs are repairable, recyclable and are the responsibility of the manufacturer at end of life - Extended Producer Responsibility (EPR). The EU require all EVs sold from Feb next year onwards to have digital product passports to fit in with this and support traceability throughout their life.

UK will probably (seeing as their won t be enough time to work out what else to do but copy the EU as if normally the way since we gave up our seat at the table) do our usual trick and introduce the same legislation but change a word so it s completely UK driven, honest guv Digital Product Records (DPR) are most likely the name we ll give them rather than DPP.

I forgot to add it but I think a classic example of maintainability would be trivial battery replacement in EVs. Personally I think they should standardized and slot in from the side as part of the floor pan. So batteries become like gas cylinders. You rock up at the garage, your old battery is fork lifted out and fully charged one slotted in. Instant replenishment and no massive bill every few years. Knackered batteries are recycled by the supplier, and the cost added to the cost to the consumer.

Edited by BikeBikeBIke on Tuesday 22 September 10:37

[Sebring440]

BikeBikeBIke said:

I forgot to add it but I think a classic example of maintainability would be trivial batter replacement in EVs.

The could trial the theory with batter replacement for sausages.

[BikeBikeBIke]

Sebring440 said:

BikeBikeBIke said:

I forgot to add it but I think a classic example of maintainability would be trivial batter replacement in EVs.

The could trial the theory with batter replacement for sausages.

Can't fault that logic. Swapping out batter for chili sauce is a definate user benefit. Migrate that to EVs and everyone will be happy.

[Mammasaid]

BikeBikeBIke said:

I forgot to add it but I think a classic example of maintainability would be trivial battery replacement in EVs. Personally I think they should standardized and slot in from the side as part of the floor pan. So batteries become like gas cylinders. You rock up at the garage, your old battery is fork lifted out and fully charged one slotted in. Instant replenishment and no massive bill every few years. Knackered batteries are recycled by the supplier, and the cost added to the cost to the consumer.

Edited by BikeBikeBIke on Tuesday 22 September 10:37

What's the point? EV traction batteries have already shown to be much more reliable and resistant to degradation than expected. Charging times aren't an issue for most people as they charge overnight, and when they go charge in publice, 1/2 hour is enough for 10-80% on a modern EV coinciding with a loo break and/or something to eat.

If they do develop an issue, specialist can now identify and isolate modules which can be replaced.

You're asking for a solution to a problem which doesn't exist.

[MikeM6]

Mammasaid said:

What's the point? EV traction batteries have already shown to be much more reliable and resistant to degradation than expected. Charging times aren't an issue for most people as they charge overnight, and when they go charge in publice, 1/2 hour is enough for 10-80% on a modern EV coinciding with a loo break and/or something to eat.

If they do develop an issue, specialist can now identify and isolate modules which can be replaced.

You're asking for a solution to a problem which doesn't exist.

I think it makes a lot of sense to introduce the 'right to repair' and easier maintenance so that in 10-15 years from now, when some batteries have degraded, replacing them will be much easier and cheaper. It's not the first user that should be the focus, if we are aiming for a sustainable future then we really ought to be extending the lifespan of every car far beyond what we do now.

[Mammasaid]

MikeM6 said:

Mammasaid said:

What's the point? EV traction batteries have already shown to be much more reliable and resistant to degradation than expected. Charging times aren't an issue for most people as they charge overnight, and when they go charge in publice, 1/2 hour is enough for 10-80% on a modern EV coinciding with a loo break and/or something to eat.

If they do develop an issue, specialist can now identify and isolate modules which can be replaced.

You're asking for a solution to a problem which doesn't exist.

I think it makes a lot of sense to introduce the 'right to repair' and easier maintenance so that in 10-15 years from now, when some batteries have degraded, replacing them will be much easier and cheaper. It's not the first user that should be the focus, if we are aiming for a sustainable future then we really ought to be extending the lifespan of every car far beyond what we do now.

Oh, I agree, however that's started to happen, there's companies taking old Leafs (Leaves?) and Telsas and refurbishing/refreshing the batteries. As the technology matures (don't forget EV's have only taken off in the last few years), there will be more doing this.

[plfrench]

MikeM6 said:

Mammasaid said:

What's the point? EV traction batteries have already shown to be much more reliable and resistant to degradation than expected. Charging times aren't an issue for most people as they charge overnight, and when they go charge in publice, 1/2 hour is enough for 10-80% on a modern EV coinciding with a loo break and/or something to eat.

If they do develop an issue, specialist can now identify and isolate modules which can be replaced.

You're asking for a solution to a problem which doesn't exist.

I think it makes a lot of sense to introduce the 'right to repair' and easier maintenance so that in 10-15 years from now, when some batteries have degraded, replacing them will be much easier and cheaper. It's not the first user that should be the focus, if we are aiming for a sustainable future then we really ought to be extending the lifespan of every car far beyond what we do now.

I suspect we'll actually see the opposite happen in terms of the concept of the vehicle user being the 'owner'. There will be so much value tied up in the materials of the vehicle especially with the soon to be mandated Extended Producer Responsibility stuff I mentioned above, that the manufacturers won't want to have other people getting in the way and owning the materials they are responsible for at end of life. Supply chain circularity will be much easier for the manufacturers if the vehicles are on a perpetual leasing model in some way. I suspect we'll see some changes to the business models here in the coming decade or so.

[BikeBikeBIke]

Mammasaid said:

Charging times aren't an issue for most people as they charge overnight, and when they go charge in publice, 1/2 hour is enough for 10-80% on a modern EV coinciding with a loo break and/or something to eat.

"Most people", fine but wouldn't it be better if EVs worked for everyone.

"10-80%" I'm not convinced. If I've had to stop I want to fill to the brim.

[Mammasaid]

BikeBikeBIke said:

Mammasaid said:

Charging times aren't an issue for most people as they charge overnight, and when they go charge in publice, 1/2 hour is enough for 10-80% on a modern EV coinciding with a loo break and/or something to eat.

"Most people", fine but wouldn't it be better if EVs worked for everyone.

"10-80%" I'm not convinced. If I've had to stop I want to fill to the brim.

At the moment it's most people, no-one is mandated to buy an EV yet, even after 2035 you can still buy and run a pure ICE vehicle, albeit not new.

As for the 10-80%, google charge curves, it often takes as long to 'fill' to 100% from 80% as from 10-80% which will give you 200 miles more of range.

[plfrench]

BikeBikeBIke said:

"Most people", fine but wouldn't it be better if EVs worked for everyone.

"10-80%" I'm not convinced. If I've had to stop I want to fill to the brim.

You’d soon be convinced that charging to the brim was a silly idea when you actually had an EV and rapid charged it

[BikeBikeBIke]

plfrench said:

BikeBikeBIke said:

"Most people", fine but wouldn't it be better if EVs worked for everyone.

"10-80%" I'm not convinced. If I've had to stop I want to fill to the brim.

You d soon be convinced that charging to the brim was a silly idea when you actually had an EV and rapid charged it

Not if they mandated easily replaceable batteries. At that point full replenishment becomes as easy as it is for ICEs. Which is what I said.

Then someone said "You don't need to becaise you just buy a service station meal for your entire family, wait around for 30 minutes and don't fill the tank" As though that was somehow OK!?

[Opapayer]

How has this turned into yet another single issue discussion about EV batteries? It was supposed to be about making vehicles easy to maintain.

It looks like it all started from one poster claiming they need repairing / replacing every couple of years. Are people really still stuck in 2010?

[donkmeister]

BikeBikeBIke said:

plfrench said:

BikeBikeBIke said:

"Most people", fine but wouldn't it be better if EVs worked for everyone.

"10-80%" I'm not convinced. If I've had to stop I want to fill to the brim.

You d soon be convinced that charging to the brim was a silly idea when you actually had an EV and rapid charged it

Not if they mandated easily replaceable batteries. At that point full replenishment becomes as easy as it is for ICEs. Which is what I said.

Then someone said "You don't need to becaise you just buy a service station meal for your entire family, wait around for 30 minutes and don't fill the tank" As though that was somehow OK!?

No, it's more that once past 80% the charge rate peters off significantly.

It's equivalent to when you get near to the pre approved limit and the petrol pump starts to run very slowly. Except it does it for a few hours.

[donkmeister]

Maintainability is a tricky one. The obvious metric would be "cost to maintain", and then you very quickly fall into trading off cost of parts Vs labour to fit parts, and the MTBF of said parts becomes part of the equation too.

As a car enthusiast you might be happy to spend a few hours a few times a year keeping your car in fine fettle, but the Tard on the Clapham Jaecoo bus would simply take it to a garage and shout "CAR NO GO. FIX UM CAR." At which point the service manager loads up the parts cannon, because it's cheaper to pay a technician to replace subassemblies than it is to hire a mechanic and pay them to do mechanicking.

Also said Tard doesn't care if the car is maintainable on 3 years and 1 day, because he'll be on the next piece of crap then.

[BikeBikeBIke]

donkmeister said:

Maintainability is a tricky one. The obvious metric would be "cost to maintain", and then you very quickly fall into trading off cost of parts Vs labour to fit parts, and the MTBF of said parts becomes part of the equation too.

Yeah, it's very hard to define.

What I had in mind was the MAF on my Van. It was centre of the engine bay on top chest height and two bolts and an electric socket to get it off. Comfortable to work on, and quicker to change than to refuel.

I want *every* single component to be positioned there and secured with only two bolts.... But given that might be tricky to engineer our legislators will need to come up with something better and I accept that's a big challenge.

Maybe there are some quick wins.

[Opapayer]

donkmeister said:

No, it's more that once past 80% the charge rate peters off significantly.

It's equivalent to when you get near to the pre approved limit and the petrol pump starts to run very slowly. Except it does it for a few hours.

Pretty ignorant, emphasised by your subsequent post. “A couple of hours”.