Recording hate crime incidents

[Vanden Saab]

Following the police being told to no longer record NCHIs it seems they have resurrected them in another form.



Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty.

[MrBogSmith]

Vanden Saab said:

Following the police being told to no longer record NCHIs it seems they have resurrected them in another form.

This doesn't seem to relate to that.

It's a bit of a mess looking at the background but this is what I can make of it:

- This was recorded back in 2024 before the guidance changed for NCHIs.

- It's a crime that has been recorded (stalking involving serious alarm or distress), not a NCHI.

It appears to be a fundamental challenge to police crime recording practices (possibly on the threshold of proof required). The hate element appears to be incidental (ancillary flags attached) to the challenge.

The screenshot (Miller is WeAreFairCop) is wrong. You do not receive a criminal record for having a crime simply recorded by the police.

From a website said:

In legal documents setting out his claim, barristers for Mr Miller claim that the CRR are unlawful as they are contrary to the basic common law principles of fairness, natural justice, transparency and good administration, and the need to prove a criminal charge to the criminal standard of proof .

[Vanden Saab]

Take it up with Harry as despite your bluster he seems to be saying you are incorrect.

[MrBogSmith]

Accusing someone of bluster when you didn't understand the basics of the topic you posted about

If he's talking so broadly as a PNC record existing due to a recordable offence as a "criminal record", then that doesn't sound unusual. But would one be created just on a crime report?

Bigends was / is an expert in this.

I guess we'll see when more detail comes out (ideally from the court documents / legal submissions for some neutrality).

[irc]

More details here. Miller had a hate crime recorded against him. This would show up on an enhanced disclosure check. He only found out because he did a subject access request.

The hate "crime" was using the wrong pronouns.

https://freespeechunion.org/archive/gender-critica...

Incidentally the person who complained about Harrg Miller was himself a former cop sacked for misconduct

"Watson was sacked for gross misconduct in October 2023 after being found guilty of sending more than 1,200 messages to Mr Miller over an 18-month period, branding him a Nazi , a bigot and wife beater . "

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/12/16/gender...

Edited by irc on Tuesday 20th October 21:25

[Bigends]

Vanden Saab said:

Take it up with Harry as despite your bluster he seems to be saying you are incorrect.

The creation of the crime report with suspect linked as responsible will not result in a criminal record or a PNC entry in any form.
Crimes are created when on the balance of probability a crime in law has been committed and there is no credible evidence which points to no crime having occured.
Seems hes upset that hes shown as responsible on the crime report without having been interviewed or given a chance to respond to the allegation

[MrBogSmith]

Bigends said:

Seems hes upset that hes shown as responsible on the crime report without having been interviewed or given a chance to respond to the allegation

The info is all over the place.

It looks like a crime under S4A POA '97 has been recorded with a 'hate' flag / marker.

Article said:

Mr Wise said that in October 2024, Mr Miller was voluntarily interviewed by Lincolnshire Police over a possible offence under the Online Safety Act.

Police decided the following month that no further action would be taken, but Mr Miller discovered in September 2025 that a hate crime of "stalking involving serious alarm or distress" had been recorded against him.

Mr Wise said that this had caused Mr Miller significant anxiety and distress .

He said: The claimant did not have any opportunity to understand the nature of the allegation in respect of which the hate crime has now been recorded and any evidence said by Lincolnshire Police to support it, nor has he had an opportunity to respond in any way to the allegation.

Mr Wise continued that there was no lawful basis for the recording of a hate crime against Mr Miller, but that the CRR stipulated that crimes should be recorded solely on the information provided in the victim s report, not any other investigation .

The CRR therefore mean that crimes are recorded on the balance of probabilities , the barrister said, and include an incoherent and inadequate set of safeguards for freedom of expression .

Mr Miller said that the argument that he presented no credible evidence to suggest the offence had not taken place was a straw man as he was not asked about it.

James Gardner, from law firm Conrathe Gardner LLP, representing Mr Miller, said the CRR were "sinister" and said it was absurd, and terrifying that individuals can have serious crimes recorded against them without any police investigation .

So it looks like he's challenging the fundamental practice of police crime recording rather than an isolated 'hate' element.

I'm not seeing the link between the NCRS rules and 'freedom of speech' concerns.

[Ridgemont]

Bigends said:

Vanden Saab said:

Take it up with Harry as despite your bluster he seems to be saying you are incorrect.

The creation of the crime report with suspect linked as responsible will not result in a criminal record or a PNC entry in any form.
Crimes are created when on the balance of probability a crime in law has been committed and there is no credible evidence which points to no crime having occured.
Seems hes upset that hes shown as responsible on the crime report without having been interviewed or given a chance to respond to the allegation

Obviously IANAL or cop.

However after a brief bout of google fu I understand (maybe incorrectly) that crime reports are temporary (thanks copilot):


• Case under Investigation: The crime has been newly recorded, assigned, or is actively being investigated by officers.
• Investigation Pending Outcome: The investigation is wrapping up and the police are meeting the requirements of the Victims' Code (such as a review by a crime registrar, specialist department, or line manager before filing).
• Investigation Closed: The crime has been filed or assigned an outcome (such as a charge, caution, summons, or a decision that prosecution cannot proceed). The case can be reopened if new evidence emerges

I’m slightly intrigued how he became aware there was an ongoing crime report and how this hasn’t been closed to either charge or closure?

And weirdly why is the guy quoting Leeds High Court 18/19th.

Seems all a bit odd.

[Vanden Saab]

Bigends said:

The creation of the crime report with suspect linked as responsible will not result in a criminal record or a PNC entry in any form.
Crimes are created when on the balance of probability a crime in law has been committed and there is no credible evidence which points to no crime having occured.
Seems hes upset that hes shown as responsible on the crime report without having been interviewed or given a chance to respond to the allegation

If there is no investigation or court case or conviction then there should be no record of a crime being committed in anybodies name as, in effect there was no crime.

[MrBogSmith]

Ridgemont said:

Seems all a bit odd.

He found out through submitting a Subject Access Request.

The Leeds High Court reference is to his own judicial review.

[Bigends]

Vanden Saab said:

Bigends said:

The creation of the crime report with suspect linked as responsible will not result in a criminal record or a PNC entry in any form.
Crimes are created when on the balance of probability a crime in law has been committed and there is no credible evidence which points to no crime having occured.
Seems hes upset that hes shown as responsible on the crime report without having been interviewed or given a chance to respond to the allegation

If there is no investigation or court case or conviction then there should be no record of a crime being committed in anybodies name as, in effect there was no crime.

There must be verifiable information that no crime occured before the report can be cancelled

[Vanden Saab]

Ridgemont said:

Bigends said:

Vanden Saab said:

Take it up with Harry as despite your bluster he seems to be saying you are incorrect.

The creation of the crime report with suspect linked as responsible will not result in a criminal record or a PNC entry in any form.
Crimes are created when on the balance of probability a crime in law has been committed and there is no credible evidence which points to no crime having occured.
Seems hes upset that hes shown as responsible on the crime report without having been interviewed or given a chance to respond to the allegation

Obviously IANAL or cop.

However after a brief bout of google fu I understand (maybe incorrectly) that crime reports are temporary (thanks copilot):


Case under Investigation: The crime has been newly recorded, assigned, or is actively being investigated by officers.
Investigation Pending Outcome: The investigation is wrapping up and the police are meeting the requirements of the Victims' Code (such as a review by a crime registrar, specialist department, or line manager before filing).
Investigation Closed: The crime has been filed or assigned an outcome (such as a charge, caution, summons, or a decision that prosecution cannot proceed). The case can be reopened if new evidence emerges

I m slightly intrigued how he became aware there was an ongoing crime report and how this hasn t been closed to either charge or closure?

And weirdly why is the guy quoting Leeds High Court 18/19th.

Seems all a bit odd.

He did a subject access request and found out that police had a report of a crime with his name as the 'offender' it seems the November date is when he goes to court about it.

[XCP]

Sounds like there was an investigation, he was interviewed.

[Vanden Saab]

Bigends said:

Vanden Saab said:

Bigends said:

The creation of the crime report with suspect linked as responsible will not result in a criminal record or a PNC entry in any form.
Crimes are created when on the balance of probability a crime in law has been committed and there is no credible evidence which points to no crime having occured.
Seems hes upset that hes shown as responsible on the crime report without having been interviewed or given a chance to respond to the allegation

If there is no investigation or court case or conviction then there should be no record of a crime being committed in anybodies name as, in effect there was no crime.

There must be verifiable information that no crime occured before the report can be cancelled

Exactly... meanwhile aiui in law you are innocent until proved guilty. This is not that. How can he prove his innocence if he doesn't even know about the alleged crime?

[MrBogSmith]

Vanden Saab said:

Exactly... meanwhile aiui in law you are innocent until proved guilty. This is not that. How can he prove his innocence if he doesn't even know about the alleged crime?

He is innocent and not required to prove anything.

The recording of a crime doesn't change that.

[Vanden Saab]

MrBogSmith said:

Vanden Saab said:

Exactly... meanwhile aiui in law you are innocent until proved guilty. This is not that. How can he prove his innocence if he doesn't even know about the alleged crime?

He is innocent and not required to prove anything.

The recording of a crime doesn't change that.

What crime?

[MrBogSmith]

Vanden Saab said:

MrBogSmith said:

Vanden Saab said:

Exactly... meanwhile aiui in law you are innocent until proved guilty. This is not that. How can he prove his innocence if he doesn't even know about the alleged crime?

He is innocent and not required to prove anything.

The recording of a crime doesn't change that.

What crime?

The alleged one recorded based on the balance of probabilities.

[Vanden Saab]

MrBogSmith said:

the alleged one recorded based on the balance of probabilities.

You seem to be suggesting that any report of a crime has to be recorded and kept on a person's record forever even if there is no proof, investigation or court case. Can you not see the problem with that?
I can report you to the police for a crime and that 'criminal record' is kept against your name forever.

[FiF]

I'm going to wait for the outcome of the court case however one comment.

Is this a situation where someone informed of No Further Action incorrectly assumes that means the incident report and any investigation is automatically deleted from your record.

[Bigends]

FiF said:

I'm going to wait for the outcome of the court case however one comment.

Is this a situation where someone informed of No Further Action incorrectly assumes that means the incident report and any investigation is automatically deleted from your record.

Yes, seems to be the case.