Time to seperate state and religion?
Discussion
I have to start by saying that I have no religious beliefs, so obviously this view is one that is under pinned by being a heathen.
BUT....Is it not time that the UK seperated itself from the Christian church, and indeed any church?
I think (swallows hard) the French have got it right. I was just watching the Traffalgar day commemorations on TV and walked away because some arch bishop started the ceremony with prayers. Can't we do the important state things without the church. From what I have seen it only leads to conflict and exclusion and leads us to thinking not as British, but as Christian, Sikh, Hindu or Muslim. Britain is no longer a Christian country but even if it was We would be better off, I feel, with the state keeping the religious mafia at arms length and this should be part of the swearing in of all new elected representatives.
Every 'public' event I have been to or seen of any importance has some vicar/priest/bishop pontificating about his God.
I think the French and now the Dutch have it right: that in state activities religion has no place. Our identify is formed by our common bond of being British or living here rather than men in dresses waving ignited handbags.
I feel we should start in schools, hospitals and other public services: no faith schools, no religiously dictated dress or symbols, no links with the church except for welfare reasons (pastroral care for those wanting religious support). No more hospital Chaplains, school vicars, Hijabs, daggers, crosses etc. No more swearing by almighty God in court (attestation to the state should be enough) or swearing in Police officers and soldiers with declarations to God.
Thought for the day.
JMGS4 said:
I would agree that would be the best policy.
Instead of a Church of England, with the queen at it's head, make it a completly independent organisation.
And take back all the property they have stolen over the last 2000 years as well.......
Stolen?
Land has often been bequeathed to the Church in people's wills.
If anyone has stolen land it is the state from the Church during the reformation.
timmy30 said:
"Britain is no longer a Christian country"
Ummm how/where did you get this conclusion from?
I don't see Christain values, belifs or practices being at the heart of social policy, or playing any real role in giving the country direction. The church numbers in all but the radical churches are falling. Few people attend or have time for the church except when they need a baby dipping, a wedding or to be buried and that is about tradition, not belief for the vast majority.
JagLover said:
Oh here we go it's the PH bolshaviks.
Or rather the militant atheists.
Here we go, lets reposses our stolen land from the Church and large land owners, lets ban all religion in favour a state mandated set of morals, lets hand all power in the land to our elected and trustworthy political comrades........
They tried this once before in the Soviet Union you know...... it doesn't work.
Fair enough you guys don't like the clergy, boring old farts etc. and certainly not perfect.... but I'll tell you one thing I rather have the moral tone set by religion than it being set by and enforced by a police state.
I agree, but I think education and religion are mutually exclusive, and one gently sidelines the other anyway.
I don't think there is any need to suddenly impose changes and not sure you could, but it will eventually happen when those who feel a benefit from religion no longer do.
If they do feel a benefit to religion in society you gotta ask why, as a way of reflecting on the health and general inclusiveness of your society.
Pefect societies don't need religion but non perfect ones do.
I don't think there is any need to suddenly impose changes and not sure you could, but it will eventually happen when those who feel a benefit from religion no longer do.
If they do feel a benefit to religion in society you gotta ask why, as a way of reflecting on the health and general inclusiveness of your society.
Pefect societies don't need religion but non perfect ones do.
timmy30 said:
timmy30 said:
Oh here we go it's the PH bolshaviks.
Or rather the militant atheists.
Here we go, lets reposses our stolen land from the Church and large land owners, lets ban all religion in favour a state mandated set of morals, lets hand all power in the land to our elected and trustworthy political comrades........
They tried this once before in the Soviet Union you know...... it doesn't work.
Fair enough you guys don't like the clergy, boring old farts etc. and certainly not perfect.... but I'll tell you one thing I rather have the moral tone set by religion than it being set by and enforced by a police state.
Does disestablishment of the CofE lead inexorably to a police state? I wouldn't have thought so personally.
leftie said:
"Britain is no longer a Christian country"
Ummm how/where did you get this conclusion from?
I don't see Christain values, belifs or practices being at the heart of social policy, or playing any real role in giving the country direction. The church numbers in all but the radical churches are falling. Few people attend or have time for the church except when they need a baby dipping, a wedding or to be buried and that is about tradition, not belief for the vast majority.
Okay first off one of the significant differences between the Catholic and Protestant Churches is the attitude to mass worship. In order to be considered part of the faith a Catholic must attend mass, the protestant Church places much less emphasis on this.
However as you correctly point out for the vast bulk of the population Chruch is their at every important event in your life from Christening, to Marriage to Death.
You I presume are saying that you don't see forgiveness, caring for the less fortunate, a sense of moral right or wrong as stemming from religion then? Got some news for you, you may not be religious but the current Prime Minister and his wife are. And the religious convictions of the Blairs are I'm afraid to say written all over his social policies.
timmy30 said:
Here we go, lets reposses our stolen land from the Church and large land owners, lets ban all religion in favour a state mandated set of morals, lets hand all power in the land to our elected and trustworthy political comrades........
They tried this once before in the Soviet Union you know...... it doesn't work.
Try telling his Toniness that, this is EXACTLY what that scumbag is trying to do, getting rid of the Lords, banning hunting etc...pure envy politics!!!!
timmy30 said:agreed, excepting of course Madhatters like the Muslim extremeists, Paisley and all the bible belt americans loonies!!!!
I rather have the moral tone set by religion than it being set by and enforced by a police state.
Julian64 said:
I agree, but I think education and religion are mutually exclusive, and one gently sidelines the other anyway.
Why? Religion plays an important role in a lot of peoples lives and hence knowledge of religion is essential when dealing with people - religion therefore should be taught especially in a psychology class.
Julian64 said:
I don't think there is any need to suddenly impose changes and not sure you could, but it will eventually happen when those who feel a benefit from religion no longer do.
Sweeping theory you have that religion is dying out - church attendance might be but other "spiritual" religions are cropping up everywhere.
Julian64 said:
If they do feel a benefit to religion in society you gotta ask why, as a way of reflecting on the health and general inclusiveness of your society.
Pefect societies don't need religion but non perfect ones do.
Which perfect society are you imagining? Atheists kill people as well you know. Don't blame an idea for the actions of those who believe in it.
Julian64 said:
Pefect societies don't need religion but non perfect ones do.
I have to disagree
Ignore the actions of the fanatics, what does religion offer?, usually some basic moral guidance and some traditions to bind society together.
Most religions tell us, do not steal, live in stable marriages and only have children within wedlock, why is that?. Is it because they are trying to crush us with puritan rules, or rather are they simple common sense rules that any 'perfect' society should aim for.
It is no coincidence that the collapse of organised religion in this country was followed by social breakdown and then an exploding crime rate.
I am not religious, but I recognise the benefits that religion can bring
timmy30 said:
timmy30 said:
"Britain is no longer a Christian country"
Ummm how/where did you get this conclusion from?
I don't see Christain values, belifs or practices being at the heart of social policy, or playing any real role in giving the country direction. The church numbers in all but the radical churches are falling. Few people attend or have time for the church except when they need a baby dipping, a wedding or to be buried and that is about tradition, not belief for the vast majority.
Okay first off one of the significant differences between the Catholic and Protestant Churches is the attitude to mass worship. In order to be considered part of the faith a Catholic must attend mass, the protestant Church places much less emphasis on this.
However as you correctly point out for the vast bulk of the population Chruch is their at every important event in your life from Christening, to Marriage to Death.
You I presume are saying that you don't see forgiveness, caring for the less fortunate, a sense of moral right or wrong as stemming from religion then? Got some news for you, you may not be religious but the current Prime Minister and his wife are. And the religious convictions of the Blairs are I'm afraid to say written all over his social policies.
But half hearted. I don't see any legislation on abortion, homosexuality, marriage etc in the manifesto. I aplaud him for his social policies, but the fact it has to be pointed out suggests he knows religious idealogy won't wash with the wider population so he does it quietly. I don't see any mention of religion in any of his public speeches.
I also don't think religion has the monopoly on forgiveness, caring for the less fortunate, a sense of moral right or wrong . We can have that without the church.
JagLover said:
It is no coincidence that the collapse of organised religion in this country was followed by social breakdown and then an exploding crime rate.
I am not religious, but I recognise the benefits that religion can bring
That is my point about a police state becoming inevitable in a state with no religion.
Why? Because if people do not impose self discipline internally it has to be imposed by the state externally. Religion gives people a set of rules to live by. If people do not know how to behave we suddnely get the state coming into our home to make us behave. We then loose choice.
I'm not a 'bible basher' just to clarify, I suppose I'm undecided about it all really. BUT what I do value is the religious lessons from assembley in school days, which set my basic moral framework, and that like it or not, at times of loss or celebration the Chruch is there for us.
>> Edited by timmy30 on Friday 21st October 09:35
timmy30 said:
It is no coincidence that the collapse of organised religion in this country was followed by social breakdown and then an exploding crime rate.
I am not religious, but I recognise the benefits that religion can bring
That is my point about a police state becoming inevitable in a state with no religion.
Why? Because if people do not impose self discipline internally it has to be imposed by the state externally. Religion gives people a set of rules to live by. If people do not know how to behave we suddnely get the state coming into our home to make us behave. We then loose choice.
I'm not a 'bible basher' just to clarify, I suppose I'm undecided about it all really. BUT what I do value is the religious lessons from assembley in school days, which set my basic moral framework, .............
VERY good points chaps....... but still can't stand those supercilious "holier than thou" thieves who stand and preach about what they have never or never will experience..... Army chaplains excluded, always had teh greatest respect for them as they "get their hands dirty"
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