Ethiopia - Arrrgh Not again.
Discussion
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2440093.stm
Just in time for Christmas we are being buttered up to 'give generously' and 'spare a thought for others'. F
that.
Too much
and not enough 
.
I'll be sending a gift wrapped Durex.
Just in time for Christmas we are being buttered up to 'give generously' and 'spare a thought for others'. F
that. Too much
and not enough . I'll be sending a gift wrapped Durex.
So all the money raised last time may as well been spent on something useful for this country then. What a waste. Natural selection will sort it out eventually, if you stop the camera waving, the guilt goes away. Harsh but true. How many times do you watch a wild life documentary, and the film crew aren't allowed to help an animal?
Are you guys taking the piss?
Because you are lucky enough to have been born in a country in which starvation does not happen and drought is what prevents us using our sprinklers, you find it oh so easy to dismiss the suffering of millions of innocents. I'm not suggesting you up sticks and go out there to start to help but they are people, whom by purely the bad luck of their birth have been given no chance or choice. The world outside our shores is a pretty crappy place for alot of people. Also to say the problems are a matter of failed birth control is just madness. Subsistance farming requires large families, there is no welfare state etc to look after aging parents, they need an army of children to provide for their old age. To impose your western European family models on a place like Ethiopia is potty.
Because you are lucky enough to have been born in a country in which starvation does not happen and drought is what prevents us using our sprinklers, you find it oh so easy to dismiss the suffering of millions of innocents. I'm not suggesting you up sticks and go out there to start to help but they are people, whom by purely the bad luck of their birth have been given no chance or choice. The world outside our shores is a pretty crappy place for alot of people. Also to say the problems are a matter of failed birth control is just madness. Subsistance farming requires large families, there is no welfare state etc to look after aging parents, they need an army of children to provide for their old age. To impose your western European family models on a place like Ethiopia is potty.
Are you guys taking the piss?
Not at all. You need to ask yourself what 'good' Live Aid in the 80s did? Good old Bob raised the profile of this suffering and amounted a great deal of cash / help only for it to occur again. Why? Whats the point and where did all the money go? The first place to start looking is at the bank accounts of the so called government.
Call me sceptical but at the end of the day what’s the point in helping these countries when the money gets siphoned away from the real cause and goes towards warfare or lining the pockets of the those in charge?
Don’t get me wrong I think the plight of these people is awful. I feel for them but sending money and food doesn’t solve the underlying problems that are clearly still there from ’84.
It may well be potty.
Being an advanced civilisation that made it's own way in the world over the last two centuries (bar some cash in the 40's and the 70's :-) with NO help from other nations, why should we artificially support others? Remember that Africa has been in it's current state for 1,000's of years, we only notice it due to the advent of a world media hungry for stories.
Alastair
Being an advanced civilisation that made it's own way in the world over the last two centuries (bar some cash in the 40's and the 70's :-) with NO help from other nations, why should we artificially support others? Remember that Africa has been in it's current state for 1,000's of years, we only notice it due to the advent of a world media hungry for stories.
Alastair
Some really disturbing thoughts on this thread 
I can hardly believe some of you guys can simply apply the principles of natural selection to human people. Fcuking disgusting in fact. Western Europe has only been peaceful for 60 odd years. Not so long ago, butchery of the worse kind was happening on our doorsteps. Many of us thake this state of affair for granted, but it is not! It may well be that the price to pay for peace is too keep our power hungry leaders busy in Brussel. If this is the case, well I am happy.
Those of you who can dismiss a few millions poeple dying as a natural selection affair are turning their back on the values for which their parents/grand-parents fought. Yesterday was rememberance day. Obviiously, many have forgotten!
I can hardly believe some of you guys can simply apply the principles of natural selection to human people. Fcuking disgusting in fact. Western Europe has only been peaceful for 60 odd years. Not so long ago, butchery of the worse kind was happening on our doorsteps. Many of us thake this state of affair for granted, but it is not! It may well be that the price to pay for peace is too keep our power hungry leaders busy in Brussel. If this is the case, well I am happy. Those of you who can dismiss a few millions poeple dying as a natural selection affair are turning their back on the values for which their parents/grand-parents fought. Yesterday was rememberance day. Obviiously, many have forgotten!
Remember that Africa has been in it's current state for 1,000's of years, we only notice it due to the advent of a world media hungry for stories.
Right I don't normally step into these highly complex moral social debates cos ,well, I'm thick alright
however I have to take you to task about africa. The place has survived for thousands of years until one very significant event. The wholesale invasion by europeans. Then followed by the slave trade and mass land use by europeans.
When we finally left the whole place was in one almighty shambles. Many countries that were granted their independance were in no fit state to govern themselves. But the europeans having just survived WW2 were more preocupied with saving their own countries than colonialism anymore. Over the years African countries were then given HUGE sums of money by the World Bank in a futile attempt to bring them up to modern western standards. However a combination of droughts and mismanagement of money caused massive problems. Much of this was entirely predictalble as the wrong farming methods were used and corrupt buerocrats dealt out the money.
ajmac said: It may well be potty.
Being an advanced civilisation that made it's own way in the world over the last two centuries (bar some cash in the 40's and the 70's :-) with NO help from other nations, why should we artificially support others?
Oh boy, you haven't read you're history books have you. One of the main reasons a small and generally insignificant country such as ours has such a strong place on the world stage and is so wealthy is because we built ourselves on the back of the Empire. Which was almost entirely slave labour and cheap indian workers as well as the combined natuaral resources of half the world at that time. We controlled India right up till after WW2. OK so India isn't starving but thats not the point. We didn't get to where we are without nicking a few bits and pieces along the way.
So ladies and gents I say that the problem in africa is, to a large extent a problem of european making. Over the years we really haven't helped with european food subsides destroying the livlihoods of thousands of africans and trade embargoes caused by corrupt political motives (on the european and american side)
and then there is the whole issue of Third World countries paying back crippling debts and daft interest rates.
For a small taste of what europe has been doing to africa see here
www.cafod.org.uk-policy/dumpingonthepoor200209.pdf
So we are not entirely blameless.
However will I be giving to the chrarities? Hmm I have massive debts of my own (non property related before anyone says they've got a mortgage) and I haven't got a job right now. So no I'll be donating nowt just now.
In fact I'd rather Africa had the slate wiped clean and was allowed to start again maybe with some donations (not loans!) this time. With less strings attached this time.
Having said all that Africa doesn't help itself standing by watching idiots like Mugabe puts the motions in place to completely starve the country to death. Its only a matter of time before the starving masses put paid to him and his bloody was veterans. Then as usual the rest of the world will have to clean up the bloody mess.
Anyway my wrist is sore from all this typing (what else!!)
I'm offski
Andy
>> Edited by andytk on Monday 11th November 19:49
And if we hadn't climbed to the top of the heap, someone else would have climbed over us. This IS the way of life, like it or not. Horrible yes, but maybe Africa is not suitable to sustain life??? yeah lucky us, but we had hard times too. What do you do personally? are you gonna send lots of money, or go there and help? in a way sending money is wimping out. If you really want to make an impression, GO there and DO something rather than lecture about how nasty other people are.
We really do think we can achieve what took several millennia in Europe in a few decades in Africa. If we are guilty of anything in the First World it is of monumental arrogance over what we can really achieve. Brussels Eurocrats think they can fly in the face of centuries of antagonism, ambition and rivalry in forging a New Euope; do-gooders and the World Bank think they can drag Africa into our world with all of its problems and challenges. The reality is that while western acts are not helping the situation, many parts of Africa are not ready to be helped in the way humans help other humans - we either give too much or give too little. I agree it is a mess largely of our own making BUT the solution is not some ludicrous self-flagellation and a guilt-ridden frenzy of donation to appease our consciences, but a steely-eyed determination to only help those who want to help themselves and not some whimsical compassion-dominated handout mechanism that solves this month's problem but not the next decade's.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2440093.stm
Just in time for Christmas we are being buttered up to 'give generously' and 'spare a thought for others'. F
Too much
I'll be sending a gift wrapped Durex.
People are so blind to the main cause of this.Population.Thats it,the end!
As history clearly shows,population of this planet went balistic around 1500ad,maybe its natures way who knows but the bottom line is until people stop breading or teach those who know no better the problem will just get worse.With India's population now over a billion and global population at 6 billion and rising(of which Africa is a major contributor)the education of these peoples gets ever more important.When you examine the worlds problems they nearly all come down to population so why not do as Broccoli suggests and bombard them with contraception!I dare say given the chance many in African nations would be so pleased to be child free or only have 1 child.
In the uk we promote population growth but all the problems that effect Africa(to name only one)do not respect political or country borders.Its our global problem.World wake up and see it coming
Oh boy, you haven't read you're history books have you. One of the main reasons a small and generally insignificant country such as ours has such a strong place on the world stage and is so wealthy is because we built ourselves on the back of the Empire. Which was almost entirely slave labour and cheap indian workers as well as the combined natuaral resources of half the world at that time. We controlled India right up till after WW2. OK so India isn't starving but thats not the point. We didn't get to where we are without nicking a few bits and pieces along the way.
Hmm perhaps it is you who have a blinkered perspective on history.
Britain rose to prominence as a world power for several reasons - as being at the forefront of a stabilising system of government and legal process - all the way from Alfred the great - through to parliamentary reform at the end of the civil war - Briatin has had a largely stable trading and legal system.
The Agricultural revolution, the mercantile system and then the industrial revolution - gave us the money and the power to BEGIN the empire - not the empire itself.
Heck we practically invented world trade - both through our naval presence - (which dispite the odd piratical incidence) largely brought order to the seas we opposed the spanish rape of the americas
And lets face it WE abolished slavery .... william wilberforce and all that.
I have NO time for post colonial hand wringing - it was a different time then - you might as well argue that richard the lionheart was wrong to participate in a holy war to make jerusalem a christian capital !
At the end ... we gave democracy and independence to Australia, America, Canada, India, Hong Kong, Burma, parts of the Caribbean etc - even in the african countires - kenya, Mozambique (pre mugabe) we have been a MASSIVELY stabilising influence.
Very few of these colonies fought the british for indepence - largely we handed over with some diginity.
Africa now has its problems which are rooted in a tribal past and a pervasive view that looking after yourself before society is the most important thing - hence the massive corruption in these countries.
I believe sadly that over the next five years africa will change radically - huge numbers are dying from HIV - and the destabilisation of southern africa is a real problem. Drought, poor governence and tribal conflict are a heady cocktail that will see 20million or more die in the next few years.
I genuinely, and passionately beleive that Africa now MUST grow up alone, its development & progress must come from within. we should support thisprocess with fresh capital and investment - and trade fairly for its natural resources - but an end to puppet governments and dictators.
(oops long post sorry)
Not sure I know enough about all this really, but i remember the last time, there was a significant sector of the Ethiopoian population living in big European style cities, who didn't give a stuff for their own kind. They were even creaming off the aid sent by the rest of the world.
meanwhile in SA, Mugabe is burning "white mans farms" and moving his army vets into the remains. the farms would appear to have provided employment & food to the nation, the vets just stand and look at the embers. Waiting for help, they don't know where to start farming.
They don't appear to want help.
Sorry if I've got the wrong end of the stick, only been watching odd bits on the tele and we all know how misleading that can be...
meanwhile in SA, Mugabe is burning "white mans farms" and moving his army vets into the remains. the farms would appear to have provided employment & food to the nation, the vets just stand and look at the embers. Waiting for help, they don't know where to start farming.
They don't appear to want help.
Sorry if I've got the wrong end of the stick, only been watching odd bits on the tele and we all know how misleading that can be...
While it has perhaps not been best phrased by some, I think that hte sentiments expressed are natural enough.
We can quite ably simultaneously feel that we ought to help people who are starving, while also wondering what the hell their government has been up to for the last 18 years.
The famine is NOT caused only by drought. It is a combination of drought, and pisspoor planning. I suppose that people would have expected the government of ethiopia to have planned ahead a bit more.
The wealthy west will step in, quite rightly, and save a lot of lives at great expense.
We will then sit back for another ten years, being villified for everything else that we do, and waiting to help out, again, when the next time comes around.
If we actually enforced change, we'd be criticised as omperialists, and if we don't, we'll be criticised heartless sould who don't care.
It is, frankly, the burden e must bear.
Of course, it's less than the burden of starving to death.
We can quite ably simultaneously feel that we ought to help people who are starving, while also wondering what the hell their government has been up to for the last 18 years.
The famine is NOT caused only by drought. It is a combination of drought, and pisspoor planning. I suppose that people would have expected the government of ethiopia to have planned ahead a bit more.
The wealthy west will step in, quite rightly, and save a lot of lives at great expense.
We will then sit back for another ten years, being villified for everything else that we do, and waiting to help out, again, when the next time comes around.
If we actually enforced change, we'd be criticised as omperialists, and if we don't, we'll be criticised heartless sould who don't care.
It is, frankly, the burden e must bear.
Of course, it's less than the burden of starving to death.
And I though I was cynical... there are some feckin short sighted views being expressed in this thread...
Not all of them by any means, but come on guys - you can manage a little humanity.
It's a harsh fact that there's probably crap all that we can do to help the majority of these people through what is undoubtedly going to be a massive disaster - 15million or more stand to starve to death.
For what it's worth, the powers that be in Ethiopia seem to be a damned sight more straight down the line and actually working to help their country than most African rulers of whatever desription.
There are, however, a few incontravertible facts:
i) Ethiopia is possibly the most hopelessly drought riddled place on the planet - it's a matter of fate, if you like, that people are born there. I'm bloody thankful to be who I am and sat where I am.
ii) They breed because they have to. When your kind is under threat of being wiped out through famine & drought, you're genetically compelled to breed, to give your bloodline the greatest chance of survival, as well as the practical reasons such as requirements of subsistance farming and welfare provision (ie they have to look after their own). Unless you're genome is not of the fittest kind, of course, in which case your bloodline dies out.
You'll note that the above justifications cannot be applied to any European or American country, so whilst it's quite right to say that breeding occurs without thought or need here, it's not reasonable to apply the same assertion to a completely different environment and human landscape.
Significant investment needs to be made in providing the country with means of self sufficiency and the ability to weather such climatic disaster.
So, it really does beg the question of what the feck happened to all that money from Live Aid? Did it fail to scratch the surface of the problem? Was it embezzeled? Did they spend too much money on 'saving people now' and too little on providing some future-proofing?
Who knows...
Until some answers are forthcoming and some realistic evidence is shown, as much as these people need help, it won't be coming from my pocket because I have no reason to believe that what I may contribute would really help the people it's intended for. Still, even that's better than spending hundreds on useless shit for people you don't really like anyway at Christmas.
Not all of them by any means, but come on guys - you can manage a little humanity.
It's a harsh fact that there's probably crap all that we can do to help the majority of these people through what is undoubtedly going to be a massive disaster - 15million or more stand to starve to death.
For what it's worth, the powers that be in Ethiopia seem to be a damned sight more straight down the line and actually working to help their country than most African rulers of whatever desription.
There are, however, a few incontravertible facts:
i) Ethiopia is possibly the most hopelessly drought riddled place on the planet - it's a matter of fate, if you like, that people are born there. I'm bloody thankful to be who I am and sat where I am.
ii) They breed because they have to. When your kind is under threat of being wiped out through famine & drought, you're genetically compelled to breed, to give your bloodline the greatest chance of survival, as well as the practical reasons such as requirements of subsistance farming and welfare provision (ie they have to look after their own). Unless you're genome is not of the fittest kind, of course, in which case your bloodline dies out.
You'll note that the above justifications cannot be applied to any European or American country, so whilst it's quite right to say that breeding occurs without thought or need here, it's not reasonable to apply the same assertion to a completely different environment and human landscape.
Significant investment needs to be made in providing the country with means of self sufficiency and the ability to weather such climatic disaster.
So, it really does beg the question of what the feck happened to all that money from Live Aid? Did it fail to scratch the surface of the problem? Was it embezzeled? Did they spend too much money on 'saving people now' and too little on providing some future-proofing?
Who knows...
Until some answers are forthcoming and some realistic evidence is shown, as much as these people need help, it won't be coming from my pocket because I have no reason to believe that what I may contribute would really help the people it's intended for. Still, even that's better than spending hundreds on useless shit for people you don't really like anyway at Christmas.
Lets see - umm baking hot sun, no regular rain, no decent soil, limited shelter, poor sanitation...
Sod it - it is just natural. The countryside can only provide for so many people - sustainable population. If the area you live in can't support that many people, stop bloody breeding!
I am NOT GOING TO BE MADE TO FEEL GUILTY about alledged sins of my fore-fore-fore fathers, nor for the fact that I was born here and not there.
If you really feel strongly about it, then go and deal with it - and while you're at it, go to Bangladesh, Indonesia, Chile, India - in fact any "third world" country. No, in fact, just go to Liverpool or London or Manchester and help the starving and homeless and elderly there.
Get real - Africa can NEVER sustain the population that it has - its not that type of countryside.
Sod it - it is just natural. The countryside can only provide for so many people - sustainable population. If the area you live in can't support that many people, stop bloody breeding!
I am NOT GOING TO BE MADE TO FEEL GUILTY about alledged sins of my fore-fore-fore fathers, nor for the fact that I was born here and not there.
If you really feel strongly about it, then go and deal with it - and while you're at it, go to Bangladesh, Indonesia, Chile, India - in fact any "third world" country. No, in fact, just go to Liverpool or London or Manchester and help the starving and homeless and elderly there.
Get real - Africa can NEVER sustain the population that it has - its not that type of countryside.
Gargamel said:
Heck we practically invented world trade - both through our naval presence - (which dispite the odd piratical incidence) largely brought order to the seas we opposed the spanish rape of the americas
Hmmm , well we did oppose the Spanish over the rape of south America , but only we because we wanted to do the rapeing
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