Discussion
My workmate recieved a Speeding ticket through the work mail this morning.
The details are 56mph in a 30mph zone and it states there 'may be photgraphic evidence and or video evidence' to support this.
However, he can remember the morning in question and knows he was zapped by a radar gun !! He was driving a company car ( car salesman ) which was not signed out to him ( or anyone else as it happens ). So there is no evidence whatsoever to prove he was driving the car !
How can the police prove who was driving the car ?
Does someone at the dealership have to take the blame if the driver denies all knowledge ?
Does this mean he can get away with it ??
How will the police pursue this ?
The poor bugger is staring down the barrel of a ban if he is caught and will loose his job for sure !!!
The details are 56mph in a 30mph zone and it states there 'may be photgraphic evidence and or video evidence' to support this.
However, he can remember the morning in question and knows he was zapped by a radar gun !! He was driving a company car ( car salesman ) which was not signed out to him ( or anyone else as it happens ). So there is no evidence whatsoever to prove he was driving the car !
How can the police prove who was driving the car ?
Does someone at the dealership have to take the blame if the driver denies all knowledge ?
Does this mean he can get away with it ??
How will the police pursue this ?
The poor bugger is staring down the barrel of a ban if he is caught and will loose his job for sure !!!
gpa said:
My workmate recieved a Speeding ticket through the work mail this morning.
So there is no evidence whatsoever to prove he was driving the car !
How can the police prove who was driving the car?
Somebody obviously knew he was driving, otherwise surely the NIP would have been addressed to someone else !
If he was lasered by the police, normally they would stop the vehicle to identify the driver, but as you say he may be photographed/video, then this would indicate a scamerati van, and no need to stop.
>> Edited by ledfoot on Monday 24th October 23:42
I assume you mean laser gun rather than radar? Not many people using radar these days afaik.
In which case they may have a very good mug shot, or they may not. If the NIP has come directly from the company he may need to make an internal enquiry about why it has come to him if there is no record to connect him to the car at that time.
In theory any correspiondence from the scameras should have been directly to him, even if the company was the first point that the scamera people would contact.
On the other hand he may be wise to consider changing careers since attempting to operate in the motor trade, and thus requiring a licence, whilst seemingly blatantly ignoring limits by large amounts is, to put it mildly, not very bright.
Unless of course there is a very good reason why this particular event is unfair.
So are there any mitigating circumstances?
In which case they may have a very good mug shot, or they may not. If the NIP has come directly from the company he may need to make an internal enquiry about why it has come to him if there is no record to connect him to the car at that time.
In theory any correspiondence from the scameras should have been directly to him, even if the company was the first point that the scamera people would contact.
On the other hand he may be wise to consider changing careers since attempting to operate in the motor trade, and thus requiring a licence, whilst seemingly blatantly ignoring limits by large amounts is, to put it mildly, not very bright.
Unless of course there is a very good reason why this particular event is unfair.
So are there any mitigating circumstances?
This can be solved in an easier way than you think. As long as his work says its ok.
Doing that speed would be 6 points at a guess unless there was another offer. You said that he received it in the mail at work, but no-one knows it was him driving the car?
This is important. It is the case where a company car is caught speeding, the company get sent the paperwork to wherever the car is registered at. It is then the companies responsibility to return the papers with the name of the driver on. They know the driver as they must keep accurate records on who has what car at what time.
If they cannot say who was driving the car, and there is no more evidence to help find out, then the company would be fined but *no points would be issued*. They would be fined on the basis that it is a requirement to keep accurate records. If they can show that accurate records are kept, but on this one occasion, despite company policy, this was ignored by an individual, this will mitigate this fine to something nominal.
Doing that speed would be 6 points at a guess unless there was another offer. You said that he received it in the mail at work, but no-one knows it was him driving the car?
This is important. It is the case where a company car is caught speeding, the company get sent the paperwork to wherever the car is registered at. It is then the companies responsibility to return the papers with the name of the driver on. They know the driver as they must keep accurate records on who has what car at what time.
If they cannot say who was driving the car, and there is no more evidence to help find out, then the company would be fined but *no points would be issued*. They would be fined on the basis that it is a requirement to keep accurate records. If they can show that accurate records are kept, but on this one occasion, despite company policy, this was ignored by an individual, this will mitigate this fine to something nominal.
Thanks for the replies. What you said is interesting Justin and what I was hoping would be the case.
It was a company car and the ticket arrived at the dealership since the car is registered to the company.
He tells me that he was caught by two plod standing at the side of the road pointing a 'gun', laser or rader he presumed, towards him. There was no flash and the device didn't look large enough to be a camera !
My guess is that it was a laser and he will just have to ride this out and hope that the company don't shop him in, in exchange for paying any fine !
As for the road in question.... Duel carridge way, not a residential area, straight road but still a 30 limit !! I checked this morning though and there are no signs to suggest this. Only at the start of the 30 zone 1 mile back down the road !
Thanks again
It was a company car and the ticket arrived at the dealership since the car is registered to the company.
He tells me that he was caught by two plod standing at the side of the road pointing a 'gun', laser or rader he presumed, towards him. There was no flash and the device didn't look large enough to be a camera !
My guess is that it was a laser and he will just have to ride this out and hope that the company don't shop him in, in exchange for paying any fine !
As for the road in question.... Duel carridge way, not a residential area, straight road but still a 30 limit !! I checked this morning though and there are no signs to suggest this. Only at the start of the 30 zone 1 mile back down the road !
Thanks again
gpa said:
As for the road in question.... Duel carridge way, not a residential area, straight road but still a 30 limit !! I checked this morning though and there are no signs to suggest this. Only at the start of the 30 zone 1 mile back down the road !
Is the road lit as per a 30 limit - lights no more than 200 metres apart (it is metres and not yards or feet isn't it?). If not and there are no repeater limit signs, it may be an invalid restriction?
Prof Beard
justinp1 said:
This can be solved in an easier way than you think. As long as his work says its ok.
Doing that speed would be 6 points at a guess unless there was another offer. You said that he received it in the mail at work, but no-one knows it was him driving the car?
This is important. It is the case where a company car is caught speeding, the company get sent the paperwork to wherever the car is registered at. It is then the companies responsibility to return the papers with the name of the driver on. They know the driver as they must keep accurate records on who has what car at what time.
If they cannot say who was driving the car, and there is no more evidence to help find out, then the company would be fined but *no points would be issued*. They would be fined on the basis that it is a requirement to keep accurate records. If they can show that accurate records are kept, but on this one occasion, despite company policy, this was ignored by an individual, this will mitigate this fine to something nominal.
Is there an actual legal requirement for a company to keep a record of vehicles and drivers with times in and out?
My understanding of car dealer's records is that they must record the names and addresses of punters driving as prospective buyers, but that is to satisfy the insurance company. Employees are automatically covered by the policy anyway and I don't know of any formal requirement to record driver details for employees. I could be wrong, but is the recording a 'sensible course of action' or a legal requirement? Maybe the BiB on here can advise - I would certainly like to know for sure.
If his employer is 'on side', I would suggest they name several possible drivers and invite the police officers to come along and identify who was driving at the time after, of course, requesting the video/photo evidence to be sure the driver is not clearly identifiable from this.
I do echo the comment that 'what is a person who, presumably, already has several, doing driving at just below 60 in a 30 limit?'.
gpa said:
The recording of (company employed) driver's is not a legal requirement as far as I know. Its just a sensible course of action to identify who was driving in the event of a speeding ticket etc.
What will happen if the police cannot identify the driver ??
Agreed. I am unsure of the absolute legal requirement, but if the company can show that they have a system in place to record who has each car, it will mitigate the potential fine. If no driver 'comes forward' and their is some doubt as to who was driving the car then the points cannot be endorsed to anyone. The company as the keeper of the vehicle will get fined though. From the cases I have heard of the fine represents the fact that they really *should* have a record of who has what car unless they want to keep getting fines. Incidentally in the cases I have heard of the fine reflects the fact that no points were awarded, and it was a company who was being fined. Thus the fine was in the low hundreds instead of £60ish.
56 in a 30 may not just be a £60 though - it could be a ban for a first offence and this, from what's been said, is not a 1st offence.
It all depends now on the view of the company directors. If they want to help their employee he'll be OK - if not, he'll get banned and lose his job.
Remember, the CPS are reluctant to take on large companies as their lawyers will get involved and a conviction, based on their ability to know who was driving, is by no means a certainty. With people in a motor business jumping into whichever car has petrol in it(!) at the time they need to go somewhere, the company could well show that they have done their best to identify the driver by sending a memo to all staff, inspecting records for who was at work on that day, etc, etc, but still can't identify the driver. That would be their defence and I know it has worked in the past.
It all depends now on the view of the company directors. If they want to help their employee he'll be OK - if not, he'll get banned and lose his job.
Remember, the CPS are reluctant to take on large companies as their lawyers will get involved and a conviction, based on their ability to know who was driving, is by no means a certainty. With people in a motor business jumping into whichever car has petrol in it(!) at the time they need to go somewhere, the company could well show that they have done their best to identify the driver by sending a memo to all staff, inspecting records for who was at work on that day, etc, etc, but still can't identify the driver. That would be their defence and I know it has worked in the past.
What has happened elsewhere, and I don't for one minute condone this, is that if the company name him as the person they 'believe' was driving, he could request the photo evidence, then name another employee (a good friend) who will then receive an NiP and will then ask for the photo evidence. Once he has seen that and feels sure that it was not him, he can name another friend, who repeats the process until, eventually, the last person named then names your friend again.
By then it may be 6 months since the original NiP was sent out and the entire thing could be 'out of time'.
This has worked in the past and, particularly with a motor business where everyone drives everything, it has a good chance of success. Each person should make the point that they don't believe they were driving, but believe it COULD have been xxxxxxx and gives the details for xxxxxxx. In this way no allegation of 'attempting to pervert.....' could be levied as they have said that, although not sure, they believe it was probably xxxxxxxx.
This is happening because the reliance on electronic detection has made this possible. If he had been stopped by a traffic police officer on patrol, this would not be possible and should not be possible.
By then it may be 6 months since the original NiP was sent out and the entire thing could be 'out of time'.
This has worked in the past and, particularly with a motor business where everyone drives everything, it has a good chance of success. Each person should make the point that they don't believe they were driving, but believe it COULD have been xxxxxxx and gives the details for xxxxxxx. In this way no allegation of 'attempting to pervert.....' could be levied as they have said that, although not sure, they believe it was probably xxxxxxxx.
This is happening because the reliance on electronic detection has made this possible. If he had been stopped by a traffic police officer on patrol, this would not be possible and should not be possible.
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