Private members bill on right to defend your home
Discussion
Householders and shopkeepers would be given the right to use greater force against burglars, under proposals to be introduced by a Conservative MP.
However Labour is opposed so it is, unfortunately, unlikely to become law.
BBC Article
MP's bid for tougher intruder law
There has been much debate over defending homes against intruders
Householders and shopkeepers would be given the right to use greater force against burglars, under proposals to be introduced by a Conservative MP.
Anne McIntosh's Private Members Bill is the third attempt to change the law after the idea was put forward by listeners to BBC Radio 4's Today.
The current law allowing "reasonable force" has been deemed confusing.
Ms McIntosh's plans, backed by shadow home secretary David Davis, are due to be debated in the Commons in December.
Listeners' law
Critics of the current law say it leaves those who tackle burglars open to the threat of prosecution.
In one of Britain's highest profile cases, Norfolk farmer Tony Martin was jailed for life for murdering 16-year-old burglar Fred Barras, in 1999.
The conviction was later reduced to manslaughter on appeal and the sentence cut to five years. Mr Martin was freed from prison in July 2003.
"We must allow people to use force which is proportionate to the threat that they face," Ms McIntosh told BBC News.
"Obviously something which is grossly disproportionate, as clearly the Tony Martin case was, would still be illegal.
"But I believe that the law is not clear, I believe the law's got to be clarified, and the balance has got to be restored so the victim is protected, and that the burglar is not treated as the victim."
The first attempt to change the law came when Labour MP Stephen Pound agreed to champion a "listeners' law" chosen by Today's audience.
Anne McIntosh said defending your property was legally "unclear"
However, when listeners voted to give householders the right to use "any means" to defend their homes, a horrified Mr Pound argued against the plans.
Earlier this year a bill by Tory MP Patrick Mercer ran out of parliamentary time.
Mr Mercer's plan wanted people to be prosecuted only if they used "grossly disproportionate" force.
His Criminal Law (Householder Protection) Bill received a second reading by 130 votes to four, after Tory MPs packed the chamber.
Ms McIntosh's Property Protection Bill extends earlier proposals to include commercial as well as domestic properties.
Ms McIntosh said she had decided to resurrect the legislation after a spate of cases in her Vale of York constituency where householders were confronted by burglars.
"The problem is that, while defending your life is clear under law, defending your property is not," she said.
MPs have the power to introduce their own legislation under the Private Member's Bill procedure.
Blair 'support'
Tony Blair is expected to come under strong pressure to support to the bill, which is very unlikely to become law without it.
Speaking about the Mercer bill in the Commons last December, Mr Blair said: "I entirely share and understand the concern and I hope we can reach agreement on it."
But Home Secretary Charles Clarke later ruled out a change in the law, saying that after discussions with police and prosecutors he had concluded that the existing law was "sound".
In February police and prosecutors published guidance to help explain current legislation.
The guidance, which related to England and Wales, said householders who injured or even killed intruders were unlikely to be prosecuted - providing they were acting "honestly and instinctively".
However Labour is opposed so it is, unfortunately, unlikely to become law.
BBC Article
MP's bid for tougher intruder law
There has been much debate over defending homes against intruders
Householders and shopkeepers would be given the right to use greater force against burglars, under proposals to be introduced by a Conservative MP.
Anne McIntosh's Private Members Bill is the third attempt to change the law after the idea was put forward by listeners to BBC Radio 4's Today.
The current law allowing "reasonable force" has been deemed confusing.
Ms McIntosh's plans, backed by shadow home secretary David Davis, are due to be debated in the Commons in December.
Listeners' law
Critics of the current law say it leaves those who tackle burglars open to the threat of prosecution.
In one of Britain's highest profile cases, Norfolk farmer Tony Martin was jailed for life for murdering 16-year-old burglar Fred Barras, in 1999.
The conviction was later reduced to manslaughter on appeal and the sentence cut to five years. Mr Martin was freed from prison in July 2003.
"We must allow people to use force which is proportionate to the threat that they face," Ms McIntosh told BBC News.
"Obviously something which is grossly disproportionate, as clearly the Tony Martin case was, would still be illegal.
"But I believe that the law is not clear, I believe the law's got to be clarified, and the balance has got to be restored so the victim is protected, and that the burglar is not treated as the victim."
The first attempt to change the law came when Labour MP Stephen Pound agreed to champion a "listeners' law" chosen by Today's audience.
Anne McIntosh said defending your property was legally "unclear"
However, when listeners voted to give householders the right to use "any means" to defend their homes, a horrified Mr Pound argued against the plans.
Earlier this year a bill by Tory MP Patrick Mercer ran out of parliamentary time.
Mr Mercer's plan wanted people to be prosecuted only if they used "grossly disproportionate" force.
His Criminal Law (Householder Protection) Bill received a second reading by 130 votes to four, after Tory MPs packed the chamber.
Ms McIntosh's Property Protection Bill extends earlier proposals to include commercial as well as domestic properties.
Ms McIntosh said she had decided to resurrect the legislation after a spate of cases in her Vale of York constituency where householders were confronted by burglars.
"The problem is that, while defending your life is clear under law, defending your property is not," she said.
MPs have the power to introduce their own legislation under the Private Member's Bill procedure.
Blair 'support'
Tony Blair is expected to come under strong pressure to support to the bill, which is very unlikely to become law without it.
Speaking about the Mercer bill in the Commons last December, Mr Blair said: "I entirely share and understand the concern and I hope we can reach agreement on it."
But Home Secretary Charles Clarke later ruled out a change in the law, saying that after discussions with police and prosecutors he had concluded that the existing law was "sound".
In February police and prosecutors published guidance to help explain current legislation.
The guidance, which related to England and Wales, said householders who injured or even killed intruders were unlikely to be prosecuted - providing they were acting "honestly and instinctively".
silversun said:
As far as I'm concerned, if someone breaks into my home, they're fair game.
couldnt agree more. the moment someone decides it is acceptable to break into my house to either threaten me and my loved ones or take my property they have shown themselves to have no respect for the law and therefore have no right to be protected by it.
planetdave said:
The current law is good
The perceived bias against the householder is down to wishy-washy judges and our prosecution service being manned by do-gooding PC maniacs
That is partly true
But the reason they are able to misuse the law to persecute the honest householder is because the law is ambiguous, how do we define 'reasonable' force.
That is why the law needs be clarified and the rights of householders strengthened
>> Edited by Jaglover on Friday 28th October 10:51
er attempt to get up, hit him again.Jaglover said:
The current law allowing "reasonable force" has been deemed confusing.
Burglars are not restricted by the restraints of "reasonable force" and if you confront one with reasonable force ringing in your ears you might hesitate at a cucial moment.
A burglar should be hit with everything you have.
. said:
"But I believe that the law is not clear, I believe the law's got to be clarified, and the balance has got to be restored so the victim is protected, and that the burglar is not treated as the victim."
It seems to me that if a burgler breaks in duffs you up & nicks a few things, you are the victim. If you give the burgler a few good whacks and is caught by the police, he is the victim.
It seems like a win win situation to me
In todays society where commonly gangs of young thugs attack individuals and record it on mobile phones for the fun of it, it is perfectly reasonable and sensible to assume the scrote you have just caught falling through your kitchen window aint gonna apologise for his wrong doing but is gonna reach for the knife he almost definetly has in his jacket as soon as he gets his lanky drug addled track suited frame offa the floor.
In the times we live in it is perfectly reasonable and imho acceptable that "reasonable force" equate to this scrote needing to be scraped together with shovels and dust pan & brush in to a number of plastic bags by the emergency services when they eventually arrive 3 days later.
In the times we live in it is perfectly reasonable and imho acceptable that "reasonable force" equate to this scrote needing to be scraped together with shovels and dust pan & brush in to a number of plastic bags by the emergency services when they eventually arrive 3 days later.
Jaglover said:
The current law is good
The perceived bias against the householder is down to wishy-washy judges and our prosecution service being manned by do-gooding PC maniacs
That is partly true
But the reason they are able to misuse the law to persecute the honest householder is because the law is ambiguous, how do we define 'reasonable' force.
That is why the law needs be clarified and the rights of householders strengthened
>> Edited by Jaglover on Friday 28th October 10:51
We can all remember iniquitous cases where some poor householder has had a hard time at the hands of the courts. It's newsworthy.
I don't know anyone who it has happened to though.
But I do know of people who have taken on intruders. One where the householder opened up the burglars leg from thigh to knee with a kithchen knife - no charge. Others chasing them down the street with bats. Next door but one took a hammer to the burglars as they fled his neighbours (top man
). Copper just said 'I wish you were my neighbour'. I absolutely have to agree with the above sentiment, the government in the UK seems unable to find a way to effectively reduce crime (which I think is the major reason why we now need these laws) so the very least they could do is allow you a way to protect ourselves and our property from crime.
We should live in a society where we are not afraid to leave our blind open and expensive electronic equipment on display, our cars on the street and our doors unlocked at night.
I think similarly harsh law should also apply to vandals who destroy property.
We should live in a society where we are not afraid to leave our blind open and expensive electronic equipment on display, our cars on the street and our doors unlocked at night.
I think similarly harsh law should also apply to vandals who destroy property.
swilly said:
In todays society where commonly gangs of young thugs attack individuals and record it on mobile phones for the fun of it, it is perfectly reasonable and sensible to assume the scrote you have just caught falling through your kitchen window aint gonna apologise for his wrong doing but is gonna reach for the knife he almost definetly has in his jacket as soon as he gets his lanky drug addled track suited frame offa the floor.
In the times we live in it is perfectly reasonable and imho acceptable that "reasonable force" equate to this scrote needing to be scraped together with shovels and dust pan & brush in to a number of plastic bags by the emergency services when they eventually arrive 3 days later.
Yeah kill them and chop them into pieces and dispose of them liberally. One burgler removed from society, no hassle to emergency services, no court time wasted, no police time wasted, no jail cell used up, no tax money wasted, your not in jail, noones any the wiser.
Whats the downside?
planetdave said:
We can all remember iniquitous cases where some poor householder has had a hard time at the hands of the courts. It's newsworthy.
I don't know anyone who it has happened to though.
But I do know of people who have taken on intruders...
I do - though to be fair they have at present been told it's *likely* to go to court.
A Father and son came back from pub to find one bloke had broken into house (while the wife/mother was upstairs asleep), and another waiting in gataway car.
Son threw one punch (broke the guys jaw though) and the Father threw a large rock at the getaway car (minor broken glass injuries to driver).
Father is in particular shit 'cos he threw rock while in the Highway, not on his land according to Police/CPS.
I always wonder - how are you meant to know the intensions of a intruder? I am not going to wait to find out if his intention is purely to steal or anything else!
Nobody knows how they will react, but I hope, if confronted, I don't hesitate to put them down so they don't get up.
>> Edited by filmidget on Friday 28th October 12:27
The way I see it, the only options when confronted with a burglar are to do nothing and hope for the best - which isn't something we should reasonably be expected to do - or to make sure they're never seen again.
Half measures of supposedly reasonable force are risky for two reasons. Firstly the possibility of prosecution, whether or not that is smaller than we think. But secondly and most importantly, if you do tackle a burglar and either injure him or cause him to do some time behind bars, why wouldn't he or his mates drop by your house late at night for some revenge - after all, they know where you live.
Half measures of supposedly reasonable force are risky for two reasons. Firstly the possibility of prosecution, whether or not that is smaller than we think. But secondly and most importantly, if you do tackle a burglar and either injure him or cause him to do some time behind bars, why wouldn't he or his mates drop by your house late at night for some revenge - after all, they know where you live.
markh508 said:
why wouldn't he or his mates drop by your house late at night for some revenge - after all, they know where you live.
i think the best course of action is to make sure that one of your blows is to his head, and that it is hard enough so that in the morning he wont actually remember where you do live!
this thread has made me look around my bedroom to see what i would choose as a defensive object, but i cant find anything heavy/sharp enough! i guess a few objects will have to be strategically relocated!
chris
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