Discussion
For a number of years now I've subscribed to Porsche and 911, waiting for the day I'd take the plunge. Well, I don't think that day is far away but I have one think that has always bugged me.....
If I get a 911 I want it to be a car that I can drive, that my wife can drive and that we'll happily put our daughter in the back of. We're good drivers I think - although have never done track days -and have had reasonably high performance cars from Fiat Coupes to Alfa GTVs (although nothing rear wheel drive)- but I hate to think that I'm putting any of us at risk by buying a 911 (I'm obviously thinking about the fidgety rear end issue here).
So, which is the safest model? I'm guessing, for a second hand buyer, it's going to be the 996 C4. But at the same time my passion for the marque is based more on the look of the 964 or the 993 and the aircooled history and development. So, if I was to look at 4WD versions of these models rather than the 996, how much, if at all, would I be compromising on safety.
Of course, I will probably try them all, but I'd really appreciate some opinions on this.
I love the marque and would be gutted if I never owned a 911. But I also love my wife and daughter just that little bit more.
Thanks for your time.
Nodz
If I get a 911 I want it to be a car that I can drive, that my wife can drive and that we'll happily put our daughter in the back of. We're good drivers I think - although have never done track days -and have had reasonably high performance cars from Fiat Coupes to Alfa GTVs (although nothing rear wheel drive)- but I hate to think that I'm putting any of us at risk by buying a 911 (I'm obviously thinking about the fidgety rear end issue here).
So, which is the safest model? I'm guessing, for a second hand buyer, it's going to be the 996 C4. But at the same time my passion for the marque is based more on the look of the 964 or the 993 and the aircooled history and development. So, if I was to look at 4WD versions of these models rather than the 996, how much, if at all, would I be compromising on safety.
Of course, I will probably try them all, but I'd really appreciate some opinions on this.
I love the marque and would be gutted if I never owned a 911. But I also love my wife and daughter just that little bit more.
Thanks for your time.
Nodz
The 996 C4 with PSM is indeed a pussycat. I've got one and take my young daughters in it. I'm sure they're safer in the back of the 996 than in my Primra....
However, if a man called nervous posts, he may have a different opinion. I think his span because it's a gay colour, not through any inherent trait of the car
However, if a man called nervous posts, he may have a different opinion. I think his span because it's a gay colour, not through any inherent trait of the car
I've recently moved into 911 territory and had a smiliar thought process as you.
I went for an older spec that you are considering - a Carerra 3.2 Targa. As it's non PAS the wife isn't really interested in driving it, bit I'm confident she could if push came to shove. A later PAS car such as 964 / 993 would be no problem.
My 2 year old happily sits in the back and loves the engine note so close behind him.
I've driven a pretty wide variety of cars in my time, including racing and rallycrossing Minis so like to think I can spot a good car vs a bad. I can safely say that the rear end issues that many fear are not as dramatic as you may think. In 4 months of enthusiastically learning my 911 in fair weather and foul it has not stepped out unexpectedly yet.
I guess you can never say never and I'm sure a diesel spill / wet leaves / black ice incident would be hair-raising, it always has been in previous cars, and the Porsche will be just as liable to problems in extreme conditions as any other performance car.
In short - go for it. You don't want to look back and say "I wish.......". If you can do it now, do it !!
Personally I'd go for 993 and will when I've had enough of the 3.2.
I went for an older spec that you are considering - a Carerra 3.2 Targa. As it's non PAS the wife isn't really interested in driving it, bit I'm confident she could if push came to shove. A later PAS car such as 964 / 993 would be no problem.
My 2 year old happily sits in the back and loves the engine note so close behind him.
I've driven a pretty wide variety of cars in my time, including racing and rallycrossing Minis so like to think I can spot a good car vs a bad. I can safely say that the rear end issues that many fear are not as dramatic as you may think. In 4 months of enthusiastically learning my 911 in fair weather and foul it has not stepped out unexpectedly yet.
I guess you can never say never and I'm sure a diesel spill / wet leaves / black ice incident would be hair-raising, it always has been in previous cars, and the Porsche will be just as liable to problems in extreme conditions as any other performance car.
In short - go for it. You don't want to look back and say "I wish.......". If you can do it now, do it !!
Personally I'd go for 993 and will when I've had enough of the 3.2.
What he said... 
If you want the air-cooled bit, a 993 C4 is going to be about as safe as poss.
The rear suspension (to tame that wayward tail) is the famous "Weissach axle" design, which was developed for the abandoned four door project. After incorporating it into the 993, they also fitted it to the boxster and 996 so it must be good!
I do think that a 996 C4 is a more forgiving car and is *easier* to drive, if you see what i mean...
Listen, just drive both, you'll understand!
If you want the air-cooled bit, a 993 C4 is going to be about as safe as poss.
The rear suspension (to tame that wayward tail) is the famous "Weissach axle" design, which was developed for the abandoned four door project. After incorporating it into the 993, they also fitted it to the boxster and 996 so it must be good!
I do think that a 996 C4 is a more forgiving car and is *easier* to drive, if you see what i mean...
Listen, just drive both, you'll understand!
One thing to note is that the 993s are airbag equipped, aswell as being better sorted handling wise compared to the 964s, particularly in 4wd format. Having said that, if I was in the market for a normally aspirated porker I'd probably go 2wd for the purer, less understeery experience.
The only thing that the 993 lacks compared to the 996 in safety terms is the PSM of which I have no experience. Given that you can find 996s in the same price range as 993s now, the best approach would be to try examples of the two series before deciding which way to go.
In general they are solidly built cars and offer good protection, though there are no NCAP results to back this up. Just be aware that the burgeoning numbers of 4x4s on the roads don't exactly help the sensation of safety, given that their bumpers are almost at lug'ole height!
My kids love being in the back of the porker and constantly incite me to go faster, even if I'm dawdling through a traffic jam! Having said that, the one time that my son was in the back of car for a "spirited" drive on country roads (we were running late) I had to slow down because he was threatening to be sick.
The only thing that the 993 lacks compared to the 996 in safety terms is the PSM of which I have no experience. Given that you can find 996s in the same price range as 993s now, the best approach would be to try examples of the two series before deciding which way to go.
In general they are solidly built cars and offer good protection, though there are no NCAP results to back this up. Just be aware that the burgeoning numbers of 4x4s on the roads don't exactly help the sensation of safety, given that their bumpers are almost at lug'ole height!
My kids love being in the back of the porker and constantly incite me to go faster, even if I'm dawdling through a traffic jam! Having said that, the one time that my son was in the back of car for a "spirited" drive on country roads (we were running late) I had to slow down because he was threatening to be sick.
Dont get confused about what 4 wheel drive brings to the party. It will give more traction (not grip please note) but then a 911 has loads of traction anyway because it has a great deal of weight over it driven wheels.
A 4 wheel drive of the 964 generation will be more of an understeerer and have a lot less steering feel than it 2WD sister (which is, IMO, a much nicer driving car as a result) the 993 2wd and 4wd are closer to each other in terms of chassis dynamics, the front driven axle only being brought in to play when the electronics think it should be..
Therefore the 'Traction circle' argument dictates that grip from the front will not be compromised since the front wheels aren't being asked to do anything but steer.. Are you with me on this?
The steering is a little bit less alive in a 993 4wd compared to a 2WD, probably due to all the extra gubbins a 4wd has connected to the front wheels and as Porsche steering is one of the best things about the car and I beleive the best in the world (maybe Lotus..?) why compromise it for a bit of extra traction (which you'll only need on a wet road when you are on FULL noise and possibly acting like a complete hoon - not a situation peeps are likely to be in very often with these cars at this age I reckon.
A 4 wheel drive of the 964 generation will be more of an understeerer and have a lot less steering feel than it 2WD sister (which is, IMO, a much nicer driving car as a result) the 993 2wd and 4wd are closer to each other in terms of chassis dynamics, the front driven axle only being brought in to play when the electronics think it should be..
Therefore the 'Traction circle' argument dictates that grip from the front will not be compromised since the front wheels aren't being asked to do anything but steer.. Are you with me on this?
The steering is a little bit less alive in a 993 4wd compared to a 2WD, probably due to all the extra gubbins a 4wd has connected to the front wheels and as Porsche steering is one of the best things about the car and I beleive the best in the world (maybe Lotus..?) why compromise it for a bit of extra traction (which you'll only need on a wet road when you are on FULL noise and possibly acting like a complete hoon - not a situation peeps are likely to be in very often with these cars at this age I reckon.
I have a 996 C4.
I've had a few fun cars over the years, including 5 Imprezas, of various states of tune. The C4 with PSM on is a match for anything I have driven and is so easy to drive quickly and safely. Very quickly, in fact, in any conditions.
Now its started to get wet, I am loving this car in a biblical way
Turn PSM off and its still really tame, but you can be a bit more hooligan if the skill set allows. The 4WD system is very good. PSM on and its infallable. I rarely turn it off, as it doesn't affect the pace, just the angle of the oversteer. Someone told me that if you brake mid corner, it turns itself back on, having concluded that you are too stupid to turn it off. I haven't tried this out!
Early ones for low 30s, facelift from 40, the knock from 997s is pretty much done now and they are a huge amount of car for the money. Recommended.
I've had a few fun cars over the years, including 5 Imprezas, of various states of tune. The C4 with PSM on is a match for anything I have driven and is so easy to drive quickly and safely. Very quickly, in fact, in any conditions.
Now its started to get wet, I am loving this car in a biblical way
Turn PSM off and its still really tame, but you can be a bit more hooligan if the skill set allows. The 4WD system is very good. PSM on and its infallable. I rarely turn it off, as it doesn't affect the pace, just the angle of the oversteer. Someone told me that if you brake mid corner, it turns itself back on, having concluded that you are too stupid to turn it off. I haven't tried this out!
Early ones for low 30s, facelift from 40, the knock from 997s is pretty much done now and they are a huge amount of car for the money. Recommended.
Do some driver training and then pick the car you like driving. I posted a thread recommending cadence yesterday, and half a day each with Dave would make more difference to your safety than which of those 3 models you pick.
With regards to the 3 models, the newer the car, the safer its going to be as technology marches on. Doesn't make the others intrinsically unsafe though.
The 996 is a "safer" car than the 993 simply due to advances in safety, crash test improvements, electronic & mechanical advancements, the fitting of airbags as standard etc - all because its a more modern car, & the more modern cars (whatever the make) benefit from all this over older models.
But the flipside is that the more advanced a car becomes the more the car helps the driver stay safe & ultimately takes the “thrill” out of driving it.
I debated this when I bought my first 911….993 or 996….I knew my wife would drive it & that my kids would go in it so it pushed my decision towards the car that was the most modern & hence safest in a crash, less likely to throw me into a bush, had airbags (front & side) & the most advanced electronic aids I could get. So I went for a 996 C4 (PSM standard)
But the flipside is that the more advanced a car becomes the more the car helps the driver stay safe & ultimately takes the “thrill” out of driving it.
I debated this when I bought my first 911….993 or 996….I knew my wife would drive it & that my kids would go in it so it pushed my decision towards the car that was the most modern & hence safest in a crash, less likely to throw me into a bush, had airbags (front & side) & the most advanced electronic aids I could get. So I went for a 996 C4 (PSM standard)
Raven Flyer said:
Not necessarily so.
Go into a corner far too fast and PSM will apply the barkes to the two inside wheels.
To us mere mortals, this is physics defied.
Or when you have to swerve violently to avoid some prat who pulls out from between some garages without looking when you are right on top of them... Impressive
Thanks to everyone for their advice - really interesting stuff.
I'm particularly drawn to the idea of getting some driver training for my wife and I. So if we do this, then put what we've learnt into practise, respecting the car and the conditions, then I see no reason why we can't get a 964 or 993 (C2 or C4) and stay safe and happy. After all, the consensus seems to be that if you're sensible, then it's only diesel or similar that'll see you off the road, and any 911 is going to be vulnerable.
So,in the case of the 964 this could save me about £10k on the purchase price compared to a 993 or 996.
The next thing to work out is whether I can use a 964 or 993 as a daily driver on (mainly) urban and suburban roads and at all times of year.
Perhaps that's for another thread!
Cheers again.
nodz
I'm particularly drawn to the idea of getting some driver training for my wife and I. So if we do this, then put what we've learnt into practise, respecting the car and the conditions, then I see no reason why we can't get a 964 or 993 (C2 or C4) and stay safe and happy. After all, the consensus seems to be that if you're sensible, then it's only diesel or similar that'll see you off the road, and any 911 is going to be vulnerable.
So,in the case of the 964 this could save me about £10k on the purchase price compared to a 993 or 996.
The next thing to work out is whether I can use a 964 or 993 as a daily driver on (mainly) urban and suburban roads and at all times of year.
Perhaps that's for another thread!
Cheers again.
nodz
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