Torture in The Independent
Discussion
Interesting moral dilemma this
I suppose one answer would be we should not rely on evidence purely obtained through torture, but if convincing evidence is presented, part of which was obtained by such torture it should be admissible.
Oh and by the way Gazboy, the independent 'independent' please
They, along with the Guardian, are the party newsletter of the Lentilists
I suppose one answer would be we should not rely on evidence purely obtained through torture, but if convincing evidence is presented, part of which was obtained by such torture it should be admissible.
Oh and by the way Gazboy, the independent 'independent' please
They, along with the Guardian, are the party newsletter of the Lentilists
During the second world war Nazi scientists experimented on concentration camp prisoners in order to better understand the effects of hypothermia. They tortured and killed many people in this pursuit. As a direct result we now have a very much better understanding of how to treat people with hypothermia, and the information they gleened from their appaling behaviour has been used to save many lives since.
It has been argued that the results of these experiments should be forgotten because of the manner in which they were obtained. To me that seems to be an absurd position.
It seems to me there are some parallels btwn the use of the data described above and the use of information provided by regimes that torture their prisoners. The information itself is just that; information. It may be reliable or unreliable and we can try to judge that case by case. Should we dismiss it because of the way it is obtained? Is it implicit that if we use the information we are condoning or indeed actually encouraging the use of the methods that alowed the information to be obtained?
It seems to me that if it is possible to use the information without in any way undermining our opposition to the use of torture, then we should do so. It also seems to me that that would be virtually impossible to achieve.
It has been argued that the results of these experiments should be forgotten because of the manner in which they were obtained. To me that seems to be an absurd position.
It seems to me there are some parallels btwn the use of the data described above and the use of information provided by regimes that torture their prisoners. The information itself is just that; information. It may be reliable or unreliable and we can try to judge that case by case. Should we dismiss it because of the way it is obtained? Is it implicit that if we use the information we are condoning or indeed actually encouraging the use of the methods that alowed the information to be obtained?
It seems to me that if it is possible to use the information without in any way undermining our opposition to the use of torture, then we should do so. It also seems to me that that would be virtually impossible to achieve.
I'm a member of Amnesty (surprise, surprise) and have read similar or worse reports of torture for years.
It's quite harrowing reading how inventive some people can be with an electrified cattle prod etc, and of course that's why it's done - to keep ordinary people scared, to keep them in line, to ensure no opposition to their governments or security forces, rather than to gain info about terrorists.
The idea that western governments are complicit in the continued use of torture is grotesque, but sadly, not surprising. If you want to act against cases such as those reported in the Independent's piece, you could do worse than join Amnesty International.
www.amnesty.org.uk/
Brian
It's quite harrowing reading how inventive some people can be with an electrified cattle prod etc, and of course that's why it's done - to keep ordinary people scared, to keep them in line, to ensure no opposition to their governments or security forces, rather than to gain info about terrorists.
The idea that western governments are complicit in the continued use of torture is grotesque, but sadly, not surprising. If you want to act against cases such as those reported in the Independent's piece, you could do worse than join Amnesty International.
www.amnesty.org.uk/
Brian
LA, I have no idea why you addressed that posting to me. I no more condone torture than you. That is not the question I'm trying to ask. The question is whether it necessarily follows that we undermine our oppositon to torture by making use of the information that may have been obtained under torture. That is a practical question, not a moral one. As I already said, I find it hard to see how we could make use of such information without appearing to give tactic support to the methods used to obtain it.
This is a difficult dilemma. Personally, I think the use of torture is barbaric and should be regarded internationally in the same way war crimes are. Therefore I obviously think it must be treated as inadmissable in a legal sense.
However, ALL governments collect intelligence covertly, and may well often come across information obtained by others via torture. Assuming a government can view said information as accurate (a dangerous assumption as others have already said)it is probably unrealistic to expect the information not to affect the goverment's actions.
Prof Beard
(Guardian Reader who treads on lentils!)
However, ALL governments collect intelligence covertly, and may well often come across information obtained by others via torture. Assuming a government can view said information as accurate (a dangerous assumption as others have already said)it is probably unrealistic to expect the information not to affect the goverment's actions.
Prof Beard
(Guardian Reader who treads on lentils!)
los Angeles said:I've had a pint and a half of lager, so I was just looking to start an argument
LA, I have no idea why ...I find it hard to see how we could make use of such information without appearing to give tactic support to the methods used to obtain it.
Thanks for the clarification ATG. I wanted to develop your argument.
... sadly I must now wend my way to a station. as an aside, I remeber seeing the author of that article interviewed on the beeb a few moths ago. He seemed like an extremely good bloke; rational, articulate and principled. Perhaps not prepared to be sufficiently diplomatic to remain a diplomat which is a pity.
Torture has been and will always be used though the ages.
1) For information
2) Mainly to place fear and supression into the minds of citizens.
The usefullness has always been in question. In the middle ages the most popular was the rack. Mainly due to the abilty to break the person down (in a mental and also physical sense) and also whilst the person is strained to pour hot water etc down the neck.
The only problem of course is people are always willing to tell ANY information regardless if true or not.
Strangest and most effective is hanging upside down and poor warm salty water into the nose, gives the effect of drowning.
The old method used to be, show the person what WILL happen to them and give them 'tour' of people through various stages of the torture process, this 9 times out of 10 gave them the confession.
Well with the fear of pain anyone will crack in the end.
Unfortunatly this also then enabled them to torture them anyway as their punishment!!
The Concentration camp reasons were ,yes, to torture thier foe but mainly to protect their men in war. It is cheaper and less worrying for them to send an expendable Gypsy or Jew to their death in testing out high altitude compression than one of their own gallent men. The "Doctors" at the time mentioned that they could only gain a certain amount of information from animals and the concentration camps gave them an almost limitless supply of bodies.
>> Edited by scared but happy on Saturday 29th October 00:00
1) For information
2) Mainly to place fear and supression into the minds of citizens.
The usefullness has always been in question. In the middle ages the most popular was the rack. Mainly due to the abilty to break the person down (in a mental and also physical sense) and also whilst the person is strained to pour hot water etc down the neck.
The only problem of course is people are always willing to tell ANY information regardless if true or not.
Strangest and most effective is hanging upside down and poor warm salty water into the nose, gives the effect of drowning.
The old method used to be, show the person what WILL happen to them and give them 'tour' of people through various stages of the torture process, this 9 times out of 10 gave them the confession.
Well with the fear of pain anyone will crack in the end.
Unfortunatly this also then enabled them to torture them anyway as their punishment!!
The Concentration camp reasons were ,yes, to torture thier foe but mainly to protect their men in war. It is cheaper and less worrying for them to send an expendable Gypsy or Jew to their death in testing out high altitude compression than one of their own gallent men. The "Doctors" at the time mentioned that they could only gain a certain amount of information from animals and the concentration camps gave them an almost limitless supply of bodies.
>> Edited by scared but happy on Saturday 29th October 00:00
I have to admit that I do not think the kind of torture mentioned above should be used to extract information under any circumstances. There are far more effective and humane ways to gather information. This type of torture is barbaric and I do not see how any country could call itself civilized could solicit these actions.
Even the U.S.’s much coveted “truth serum” they seem to want to use so much appears to consist of nothing less than inducing an intoxicated state (Drugs trip is you will) with a drug very similar to LSD repeatedly and hoping they can force the victim to break down (which usually seems to turns them into a vegetable or a raving loon however).
Even the U.S.’s much coveted “truth serum” they seem to want to use so much appears to consist of nothing less than inducing an intoxicated state (Drugs trip is you will) with a drug very similar to LSD repeatedly and hoping they can force the victim to break down (which usually seems to turns them into a vegetable or a raving loon however).
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