Green Goddesses...
Discussion
in a word 'training' - The Army have never used the equipment before but i don't understand why they were not trained up in the weeks running up to the strike. How long can it take for basic training ? or does this show that the goverment weren't taking the fireman's threats seriously?
Or a training issue, the new kit is to complicated for highly trained soldiers to use 
But it does bring up the issue of why doesn't the army get the fire service's old kit that way the kit being used now would only be 5-10 years old and not 40 years old. Where do all the old fire engines go?
But it does bring up the issue of why doesn't the army get the fire service's old kit that way the kit being used now would only be 5-10 years old and not 40 years old. Where do all the old fire engines go?
The army are struggling with the old-fashioned 1950's technology. The "Green Godesses" belong in a museum, do about 30mph flat out and are a serious fire hazard (mostly wood). Modern firemen are highly trained and their equipment is a bit more complicated. Plus it would mean the army getting involved in politics - crossing the picket line.
What I'd like to know is what happens to obsolete fire appliances (and associated equipment) once they've served their useful life?
I have seen some at classic vehicle events, therefore I assume they're simply sold off by the authorities...so one has to ask - why aren't they bought up by HM Government as they become available to replace the 50 year-old Green Goddesses? After all, the GGs are meant to provide civil defence service in the event of major incidents aren't they? Therefore in the name of efficiency, they should be replaced.
I have seen some at classic vehicle events, therefore I assume they're simply sold off by the authorities...so one has to ask - why aren't they bought up by HM Government as they become available to replace the 50 year-old Green Goddesses? After all, the GGs are meant to provide civil defence service in the event of major incidents aren't they? Therefore in the name of efficiency, they should be replaced.
Green Goddeses were bought on mass in the 50's for dealing with the cold war scenario and have been mothballed since.
Most RAF bases esp RAF airfields have reasonably modern kit which they will need to keep on base to allow flying to continue and hence defence, likewise the large civi airports have a similar setup.
The other bases rely upon the civil fire brigade.
Most RAF bases esp RAF airfields have reasonably modern kit which they will need to keep on base to allow flying to continue and hence defence, likewise the large civi airports have a similar setup.
The other bases rely upon the civil fire brigade.
Flew into heathrow last night - noticed that the firestation next to the runway was inoperative with firemen wandering around the area with plackards etc. Just what the hell is all that about? Can BAA really operate an airport with no fire crews or is there a couple of green godesses round the back just in case....Hutch
The training excuse is bollox.
For sure every single sailor that goes to sea in the Royal Navy has completed atleast a basic fire fighting course, and when I say "basic" that means Use and control of Breathing Aperatus, re-entry techniques, two hose firefighting (one for protection one for attack), Use of Thermal Imaging cameras, four man entry teams, foam making breaches, etc etc not just a quick HSE style talk on types of extinguiser. For those that need it they then do advanced training which is infact more specialised and technical than most civilian firefighters for things such as flight deck crashes, machinery space fires etc. When a ship is mid Atlantic in peace time and they have a fire there is no Fire Brigade to call they have to cope, and when a ship gets hit by a missile there most certainly is no fire brigade to call. They do have the knowledge and ability and 95% of Navy personnel have a trade as well as being able to fight fires (there is a small branch of Air Station firefighters AH's) oh yes and most of them start on less than £20k !!! The two reasons that they haven't been able to use proper kit and give better coverage is that the Navy as a whole stands at a strength of about 50,000 (There are 48,000 firefighters), we could well be building up to another conflict, and there simple isn't a large pool of spare "kit" that isn't operationally commited so they can't do it themselves. They cannot use the Civilian kit (yet) purely for political reasons, regardless of what excuses are given about HSE grounds, training, insurance etc etc the bottom line is that the government will not allow escalation of the dispute where we see scenes outside fire stations of military personell driving civilian tenders through picket lines, then returning them to firefighters after there 48hr periods etc. The whole scenario is a nightmare where bulshy FBU members would find every reason possible to take tenders off the road (safetys always a good one, ask the secondary pickets, ooops sorry tube drivers) Add to this the fact that the FBU have all ready stated that any tender commandeared and used by military personnel during the dispute would be blacklisted by it's members, forcing central goivernment to "Buy" them back off of the local authorities.
Anyway this is "old ground" we've been here before.
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?p=2&f=0&t=16830&h=0&hw=firefighters
For sure every single sailor that goes to sea in the Royal Navy has completed atleast a basic fire fighting course, and when I say "basic" that means Use and control of Breathing Aperatus, re-entry techniques, two hose firefighting (one for protection one for attack), Use of Thermal Imaging cameras, four man entry teams, foam making breaches, etc etc not just a quick HSE style talk on types of extinguiser. For those that need it they then do advanced training which is infact more specialised and technical than most civilian firefighters for things such as flight deck crashes, machinery space fires etc. When a ship is mid Atlantic in peace time and they have a fire there is no Fire Brigade to call they have to cope, and when a ship gets hit by a missile there most certainly is no fire brigade to call. They do have the knowledge and ability and 95% of Navy personnel have a trade as well as being able to fight fires (there is a small branch of Air Station firefighters AH's) oh yes and most of them start on less than £20k !!! The two reasons that they haven't been able to use proper kit and give better coverage is that the Navy as a whole stands at a strength of about 50,000 (There are 48,000 firefighters), we could well be building up to another conflict, and there simple isn't a large pool of spare "kit" that isn't operationally commited so they can't do it themselves. They cannot use the Civilian kit (yet) purely for political reasons, regardless of what excuses are given about HSE grounds, training, insurance etc etc the bottom line is that the government will not allow escalation of the dispute where we see scenes outside fire stations of military personell driving civilian tenders through picket lines, then returning them to firefighters after there 48hr periods etc. The whole scenario is a nightmare where bulshy FBU members would find every reason possible to take tenders off the road (safetys always a good one, ask the secondary pickets, ooops sorry tube drivers) Add to this the fact that the FBU have all ready stated that any tender commandeared and used by military personnel during the dispute would be blacklisted by it's members, forcing central goivernment to "Buy" them back off of the local authorities.
Anyway this is "old ground" we've been here before.
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?p=2&f=0&t=16830&h=0&hw=firefighters
I can't see why they weren't given some training on the more modern kit - at the very least they would get to a fire quicker and would be less likely to break down...
as for crossing a picket line - bollox, just cross it.
I can't see the average soldier being that worried. They're paid less than the firefighters and can't strike by law.
another question, who do fire brigades report to - local county council or central government? I assume this is who the kit belongs to...
as for crossing a picket line - bollox, just cross it.
I can't see the average soldier being that worried. They're paid less than the firefighters and can't strike by law.
another question, who do fire brigades report to - local county council or central government? I assume this is who the kit belongs to...
I still find it bizzare that we live in a world where you can go on strike. I mean, I work in an industry where if I were to go on strike, I would be saked instantly.... no questions no quarms etc....
So what the hell do the providers of an emergency service think they are doing? And preventing access to their equipment is just down right daft..
I just hope that they arent being paid for this...
Dangerous, stupid and downright irresponsible (sp?). Get rid of the ring leaders, disband the union and sort it out - but this is just stupid...
Cheers,
Paul
So what the hell do the providers of an emergency service think they are doing? And preventing access to their equipment is just down right daft..
I just hope that they arent being paid for this...
Dangerous, stupid and downright irresponsible (sp?). Get rid of the ring leaders, disband the union and sort it out - but this is just stupid...
Cheers,
Paul
Just read through the thread, and the earlier one that mel pointed to. I'm afraid I'm a bit Tory boy on this one. Professional people need a degree and a good deal of training to get their title. Up in the North most engineers and IT workers (employed, not contract obviously) struggle to get up to £30k - and this is after spending six years (i.e. £180k of lost earnings 
) in getting there.
Also, are we not forgetting the pension. My advisor has told me that if I want a pension of similar size to that that someone in goverment employment at my salary can expect, then I should be putting 85% of my gross salary into said fund - therefore pay the public sector workers £4,500 a year and everybody is happy?)
I don't know what firefighters are worth, and I would have trouble setting a salary for any public service job (you can't just pay a proportion of the financial benefit that their job brings), but their arguement is fundementally flawed - they are skilled workers, not professionals. I also think that if they compared their t&c's to most of us in the private sector they would be shocked at how well they do.
In response to an earlier thread - yes £31,000 is ridiculous to drive a tube.
Thought that this was supposed to be a motoring forum - why do I keep getting dragged into the political threads?
) in getting there. Also, are we not forgetting the pension. My advisor has told me that if I want a pension of similar size to that that someone in goverment employment at my salary can expect, then I should be putting 85% of my gross salary into said fund - therefore pay the public sector workers £4,500 a year and everybody is happy?)
I don't know what firefighters are worth, and I would have trouble setting a salary for any public service job (you can't just pay a proportion of the financial benefit that their job brings), but their arguement is fundementally flawed - they are skilled workers, not professionals. I also think that if they compared their t&c's to most of us in the private sector they would be shocked at how well they do.
In response to an earlier thread - yes £31,000 is ridiculous to drive a tube.
Thought that this was supposed to be a motoring forum - why do I keep getting dragged into the political threads?
Seems to me most firemen are apalled that they have ended up striking. I do wonder how long this idiot Gilchrist will last when the dust settles. He seems to have no political nous at all. Demanding 40%, even if you believe you deserve it, is hoplelessly unrealistic.
The firebrigade has lined itself up to be given a good Thatchering at the end of this. The more irresponsible they look, the less their opinions will be taken into account and they are going to end up with new working practices, no-strike contracts, etc imposed on them nby their employers.
The firebrigade has lined itself up to be given a good Thatchering at the end of this. The more irresponsible they look, the less their opinions will be taken into account and they are going to end up with new working practices, no-strike contracts, etc imposed on them nby their employers.
Seems to me like this Gilchrist and Bob Crowe from the RMT are the pretenders to Scargills crown.
One of the reporters on the BBC said she been told by a fire fighter the union was so powerful that if he'd refused to strike he'd have been drummed out of a job.
This is just a small bunch of hardline militants looking to pick a fight with the goverment and unfortunatley dragging the the rest of the FBU membership in with it.
One of the reporters on the BBC said she been told by a fire fighter the union was so powerful that if he'd refused to strike he'd have been drummed out of a job.
This is just a small bunch of hardline militants looking to pick a fight with the goverment and unfortunatley dragging the the rest of the FBU membership in with it.
40% is obviously a massive increase, but isn't it all having the desired effect for public service workers in general? This govt just works around the edges and puts a spin on everything to try and slime out of most situations - here the firefighters have just gone -bamm- we went a seriously decent wage, we're going on strike, deal with it. Can't think of many other groups that have got this far against the government. And if they want better public services, surely paying the workers a seriously good wage is going to help attract and keep people, encourage improvements in productivity and give greater dignity to people doing a job for the country?
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