RE: Jensen: The End
Thursday 14th November 2002
Jensen: The End
It's too late...
Discussion
The frequency with which a no hope car brand is launched is quite puzzling in this country. Most of them seem to plan on making money by bringing out a car that is a sort of low quality Lotus, and selling it for close to 50,000 pounds.
There is the odd exception (Noble), but in most other cases, they haven't a hope.
I remember when strathcarron were displaying their new car a few years back. I wandered along to the pub in the city where they were displaying it, as both a potential investor, and purchaser (investors were going to get first deliveries). I asked the MD why they thought they could tempt people away from the (then) new Elise, when it had the Lotus name behind it. I was told that their car would be less understeery, as the chassis work was by Reynard, and that its performance level would be much higher. I replied that I didn't think that the Elise was particularly noted for understeer, and that I was more than happy with mine.
Now, at that point, Elise owners were extremely rare compared to nowadays, so I'd have thought that he might have at lest listened to exactly the sort of person he was planning to sell to. Unfortunately, he chose to talk down to me like I was an idiot, explaining that if Reynard said the Elise understeered to much, then who was I to question them?
I could see the project was doomed, so kept my money in my pocket, and suggested to all my friends that they did the same. No surprise when it all went tits up a while later, after swallowing wads of cash.
I can see exactly the same happening wuith that car that's featured in this month's EVO (RD180?), and which I saw at the motor show at Canary Wharf. The idea is that it's like an Elise, but more powerful (I believe 180bhp). Unfortunately, they quote a price of 45,000 pounds, have no guarantees that they'll exist in a year to produce spares, and are offering a car which really looks like it was built in someone's garage.
Who is going to buy it? It costs the same as a Noble, with MUCH less performance. Surely it's as doomed as strathcarron.
There is the odd exception (Noble), but in most other cases, they haven't a hope.
I remember when strathcarron were displaying their new car a few years back. I wandered along to the pub in the city where they were displaying it, as both a potential investor, and purchaser (investors were going to get first deliveries). I asked the MD why they thought they could tempt people away from the (then) new Elise, when it had the Lotus name behind it. I was told that their car would be less understeery, as the chassis work was by Reynard, and that its performance level would be much higher. I replied that I didn't think that the Elise was particularly noted for understeer, and that I was more than happy with mine.
Now, at that point, Elise owners were extremely rare compared to nowadays, so I'd have thought that he might have at lest listened to exactly the sort of person he was planning to sell to. Unfortunately, he chose to talk down to me like I was an idiot, explaining that if Reynard said the Elise understeered to much, then who was I to question them?
I could see the project was doomed, so kept my money in my pocket, and suggested to all my friends that they did the same. No surprise when it all went tits up a while later, after swallowing wads of cash.
I can see exactly the same happening wuith that car that's featured in this month's EVO (RD180?), and which I saw at the motor show at Canary Wharf. The idea is that it's like an Elise, but more powerful (I believe 180bhp). Unfortunately, they quote a price of 45,000 pounds, have no guarantees that they'll exist in a year to produce spares, and are offering a car which really looks like it was built in someone's garage.
Who is going to buy it? It costs the same as a Noble, with MUCH less performance. Surely it's as doomed as strathcarron.
I disagree. Even if the regulations hadn't changed, I think that they were never going to have a viable business model producing those things.
I just don't think that they offered enough over an Elise. a 1200cc motorbike engine in a car that weighs about the same as an S1 Elise is not going to be that fast, and the poor figures for the VX220 have shown the damage that the wrong badge can do.
Perhaps if it had 200+bhp, weighed 100kg less AND cost closer to 15k, they might have had a chance. Otherwise, I'd estimate the market at maybe 20 cars per year.
Lok at the Caterham 21. How many of those sold, 6?
I just don't think that they offered enough over an Elise. a 1200cc motorbike engine in a car that weighs about the same as an S1 Elise is not going to be that fast, and the poor figures for the VX220 have shown the damage that the wrong badge can do.
Perhaps if it had 200+bhp, weighed 100kg less AND cost closer to 15k, they might have had a chance. Otherwise, I'd estimate the market at maybe 20 cars per year.
Lok at the Caterham 21. How many of those sold, 6?
Wasnt it a 'Busa engine?
The sequential box on the right hand side I liked, gave it an old racing car feel.
The only one I have seen looked like the build was spot on and from what I have heard they were a lot of fun.
I do agree though, they probably would have gone under in future. Still its better that we have people trying make it in the sportscar market than not...
Matt.
The sequential box on the right hand side I liked, gave it an old racing car feel.
The only one I have seen looked like the build was spot on and from what I have heard they were a lot of fun.
I do agree though, they probably would have gone under in future. Still its better that we have people trying make it in the sportscar market than not...
Matt.
I agree, I'm glad that people try, but too many seem to have no concept of what the market will support.
Don't know why this is, perhaps spending time among enthusiasts gives a false impression of demand, but there really aren't that many people out there each year ho have the best part of 20k to spend on a car with no boot or roof, by an unknown company. ANyone trying to break into the market in a big way needs something truly special. Lotus has done it time and again, and handed one of their models on to Caterham, TVR has done it, and now Noble have joined them. Unfortunately for the new folk, that pretty much fills up the most common niches for low volume affordable sports cars.
You then have Ariel to fill one of the few remaiming gaps, leaving precious few chinks for the next company to step into.
Don't know why this is, perhaps spending time among enthusiasts gives a false impression of demand, but there really aren't that many people out there each year ho have the best part of 20k to spend on a car with no boot or roof, by an unknown company. ANyone trying to break into the market in a big way needs something truly special. Lotus has done it time and again, and handed one of their models on to Caterham, TVR has done it, and now Noble have joined them. Unfortunately for the new folk, that pretty much fills up the most common niches for low volume affordable sports cars.
You then have Ariel to fill one of the few remaiming gaps, leaving precious few chinks for the next company to step into.
"Perhaps if it had 200+bhp, weighed 100kg less AND cost closer to 15k, they might have had a chance."
So you want a car that weighs 550 kg, has 200+hp, costs 15K and presumably isn't in the Lotus 7 mold?
Why would any company bother trying to meet such a specification when it would require so much effort and maybe make them 1 or 2 K profit per car. Multiply by maybe 300 cars a year absolute maximum and for all your work you'll make about 450 K a year profit. Hardly worth the effort given the technical difficultly and risk you will only sell 10 of them.
You will NEVER see such a car. The light sportscar world is going to be bookended by the caterham at one end and the Lotus Elise at the other, with no room for anyone else.
The only real niche left - when i thought there were none - is being filled by the new Smart coupe/convertible, the only truly innovative car of the last 10 years.
So you want a car that weighs 550 kg, has 200+hp, costs 15K and presumably isn't in the Lotus 7 mold?
Why would any company bother trying to meet such a specification when it would require so much effort and maybe make them 1 or 2 K profit per car. Multiply by maybe 300 cars a year absolute maximum and for all your work you'll make about 450 K a year profit. Hardly worth the effort given the technical difficultly and risk you will only sell 10 of them.
You will NEVER see such a car. The light sportscar world is going to be bookended by the caterham at one end and the Lotus Elise at the other, with no room for anyone else.
The only real niche left - when i thought there were none - is being filled by the new Smart coupe/convertible, the only truly innovative car of the last 10 years.
I'm not surprised the new Jensen didn't survive. They were too keen to put the name and image before the design of the car - cart before the horse. 
I think it's a bad idea to revive past glories - better to design a car on it's own merits.
Why can't they leave history alone and make their own?
I think it's a bad idea to revive past glories - better to design a car on it's own merits. Why can't they leave history alone and make their own? Why do they do it? Because they have a dream, a passion for creating something different, something better!
stevenrt said:
Why would any company bother trying to meet such a specification when it would require so much effort and maybe make them 1 or 2 K profit per car.
You think these people are purely in it for a profit? I can see why northernboy, as an investment banker would steer clear - he's right, these ventures are very high risk, low return. But as an engineer, designer, these are opportunites to use all of their creative abilities. Even if they fail, at least they can say they tried....
Hardly worth the effort given the technical difficultly and risk you will only sell 10 of them.
I disagree. As long as they are not stifled by regulations, there will always be a turnover of new small volume car manufacturers. They may never make a profit, but even if they only break even, they will have succeeded. Life isn't just about making the most money.
You will NEVER see such a car. The light sportscar world is going to be bookended by the caterham at one end and the Lotus Elise at the other, with no room for anyone else.
Craig (in a philosophical mood)
It was a Triumph engine, as I recall.
plotloss said:Wasnt it a 'Busa engine?
I was very interested in the Strathcarron at the 2000 Motor Show, to the extent that my wife and I were considering a deposit.
What killed it for me was that it was either too expensive for the performance, or not enough performance for the price (depending on how you looked at it).
One review I read (EVO, AutoCar, CAR, I forget which) accused it of falling between two stools - the two stools being Caterham 7 and Elise. It wasn't as practical as the Elise for road use and wasn't as good as the Caterham for track use and ended up being "neither fish nor fowl" and having insufficient appeal to tempt drivers out of either car.
It was a pity they failed, and it is a pity that Jensen failed, but as I've commented in the past you must excel in an area to get sales, whether that area be price, performance, handling or whatever. It is insufficient just be different as both Strathcarron and Jensen have found to their cost.
I always thought the Jensen thing was doomed - the front of the car was a real dog and the organisation behind it seemed to be employing all sorts of executives with fancy titles before they had sold 1 car. Its a tough market and takes more than just a badge with some history behind it, be it- Jensen, AC -or Invicta ?
r200tvr said: I always thought the Jensen thing was doomed - the front of the car was a real dog and the organisation behind it seemed to be employing all sorts of executives with fancy titles before they had sold 1 car. Its a tough market and takes more than just a badge with some history behind it, be it- Jensen, AC -or Invicta ?
And in Jensens case that history is a series of failures , natural selection i think
Just out of curiosity but as I see it TVR is soon to vacate quite an important niche market. That of the front engined rearwheel drive V8 sports car. Admitedly they've got the Cerbera but its 45K basic and has 4 seats and a roof. A lot of folk don't want or need that much car. Two seats and no roof is just fine.
Also they have the Tamora but crucially its a straight 6 and for a lot of poeple that is enough to put the deal off.
So in the UK what V8 cars do we have left. Well um the new Iceni is the only real contender unless you count the Chevvy Corvette....
I reckon this is one area where a car company could jump into the market quite successfully.
The critera would have to be:
1. Off the shelf (ie. a crate engine) form one if the big manufacturers. This MUST be a relivble V8.
2. front engined rearwheel drive
3. must cost between 30 to 40K UKP
4. must be 2 seater soft top/coupe
5. Must be good looking. NO wacky designs. Keep it real as they say. Meaning looks that people will instantly fall in love with.
Even David Blunkett could have told you the FBS was ugly.....
It would also help if the trim was good and it didn't depreciate like this mornings copy of the sun. But these are optional
Andy
>> Edited by andytk on Thursday 14th November 14:43
Also they have the Tamora but crucially its a straight 6 and for a lot of poeple that is enough to put the deal off.
So in the UK what V8 cars do we have left. Well um the new Iceni is the only real contender unless you count the Chevvy Corvette....
I reckon this is one area where a car company could jump into the market quite successfully.
The critera would have to be:
1. Off the shelf (ie. a crate engine) form one if the big manufacturers. This MUST be a relivble V8.
2. front engined rearwheel drive
3. must cost between 30 to 40K UKP
4. must be 2 seater soft top/coupe
5. Must be good looking. NO wacky designs. Keep it real as they say. Meaning looks that people will instantly fall in love with.
Even David Blunkett could have told you the FBS was ugly.....
It would also help if the trim was good and it didn't depreciate like this mornings copy of the sun. But these are optional
Andy
>> Edited by andytk on Thursday 14th November 14:43
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