GTM Libra questions

[m1spw]

Ok, I know these might be unanswerable, but someone here might know:

1) How long did production of kits in 1.4l engine form run?
2) How many 1.4's were made (factory produced)
3) Did they ever make a 1.1 or a 1.2?
4) When did GTM start making Libra's?
5) What insurance group are the 1.4's?

Thanks guys.

[docevi1]

Kit-Car's don't have an insurance "group" per-say, the rating is based on engine size, age of kit and a few other variables. Thats why insurance for them is more reasonable than "normal" car insurance - it's done pretty much on an induvidual basis.

AFAIK, the Libra was built using the 1.4K from the MG ZR, most people wouldn't have gone with a smaller engine although there are plenty of home-builds rather than factory so you might be luckly. It's doubtful though considering it's a performance car and the only real limiting factor is the tax banding - 1.4 falls below 1.5lts .

The Libra is a cracking little car, but look at the prices - they aren't cheap.

[m1spw]

docevi1 said:

The Libra is a cracking little car, but look at the prices - they aren't cheap.

Yeh, but the price of insurance means that I have a bigger budget for a car. Ok, so its still not in Libra territory, but if I sell my bike, a load of the crap I have lying about, my house.....or maybe I could get a job...nah, thats never going to happen

[JonRB]

The Libra is indeed a cracking car. I'm very tempted with one myself, although if it is going to replace my Chimaera it's going to need the V6 engine, preferably tuned up by QED Motorsport from the standard 187bhp (190PS) to a more respectable 230bhp. I estimate a power-to-weight ratio of around 270-odd bhp/tonne.

Having said that, I'd love to know if the 2.7TT from the previous-generation Audi S4 would fit. 315bhp in standard (but chipped) form would give a pretty fun power-to-weight ratio.

Sorry for going a bit off-topic there.

[Paul Drawmer]

I expect Ferg will be along shortly to give definitive answers; but roughly:

1) How long did production of kits in 1.4l engine form run?
AFAIK - you can still get it. The only difference betweeen the 1.8 kit and smaller Ks is a bracket for the gear change linkage on the non PG1 gear box as fitted to 1.4s

2) How many 1.4's were made (factory produced)
Dunno - not many, several made by home builders though.

3) Did they ever make a 1.1 or a 1.2?
No - only K series

4) When did GTM start making Libra's?
Ferg will know

5) What insurance group are the 1.4's?
v. reply by docevi1

See my car here:
www.drawmer.net/libra/librabuild.h

RE: VAG 3.2 V6.
Bertram is building a Libra with a VAG turbo 4- pot.
www.b_bakker.dds.nl/index.htm
This looks sensible and exciting to me; however, I reckon that the heavy VAG V6 would destroy the balance of the Libra. The car is fairly light and has a really good balance. Whilst you could in theory put more powerful engines in, an increase in rearward weight bias would have an adverse effect on the handling, and turn from a fairly nimble machine into a 'point and squirt' car.


>> Edited by Paul Drawmer on Saturday 5th November 23:14

[JonRB]

Paul Drawmer said:

RE: VAG 3.2 V6. Bertram is building a Libra with a VAG turbo 4- pot. www.b_bakker.dds.nl/index.htm This looks sensible and exciting to me; however, I reckon that the heavy VAG V6 would destroy the balance of the Libra. The car is fairly light and has a really good balance. Whilst you could in theory put more powerful engines in, an increase in rearward weight bias would have an adverse effect on the handling, and turn from a fairly nimble machine into a 'point and squirt' car.

Yes, I'm aware of Bertram's project, as is the factory, and it would be nice to see it become a factory option at some point. The 1.8T is well-known and very tunable, but lacking in character somewhat.

Point & squirt would not be too great of a problem for me and is, in my opinion, really the only safe way to make progress on public roads anyway - you can't carry too much speed round a bend in case there is an obstruction on the other side, whereas you can adopt "slow in, fast out" and make use of the crushing torque of a powerful engine to nail the straights with good vision. It is a technique I use to good effect in my Chimaera and would probably suit my driving style. Whether or not the engine would actually fit, or how easy they are to come by, is perhaps more of a question.

>> Edited by JonRB on Saturday 5th November 23:43

[Bertram]

Jon,

I visited the factory less than two weeks ago. One of the things we were going to discuss was the Audi engine option. The week before I visited I got all sorts of questions about the 1.8T fitment. I invited an engineer from the factory to come over to my place to have a look at what I am doing. GTM seemd very enthiousiastic about this idea.

When I visited the factory David Keene (GTM MD and owner) told me that GTM is NOT going to use the 1.8T engine for the Libra / Spyder. I assume you can imagine my surprise. If I can be of any help for you to build your own 1.8T Libra, please feel free to contact me. I have drawings of (almost) all the parts I made, which you could use to get parts made locally.

[Ferg]

All questions pretty much answered.

The Libra was launched in '98. Remember that it was intended to be a one-donor car (up to a point) and was always intended to use the 1.4 MPi engine. By the time the factory really got into building turnkey cars most people wanted 1.6s or 1.8s. Oh, and a CVT automatic.

I don't see why you couldn't fit the little 1.1 'K' Series, there are certainly some K3s about with that engine.

I'd take issue (in a friendly caring way) with Stefan that Libras are not cheap. All things are relative, but if you can buy a car with 5K on the clock for around half what it cost to build.......

[docevi1]

Cheap as in, well priced for what they are but not necessarily cheap cars to people like Christian here.

[JonRB]

Hi Bertram!

Very surprised to hear that GTM have so categorically turned their noses up at the 1.8T option. I had got the impression they were keeping an eye on your project and treating it like free Research & Development. I had hoped that would lead to an official factory-approved turnkey 1.8T car.

I'd still like to see that 2.7TT in a Libra. However, having virtually no mechanical ability I can't see it being a project that I would be able to undertake.

[annodomini2]

JonRB said:

Having said that, I'd love to know if the 2.7TT from the previous-generation Audi S4 would fit. 315bhp in standard (but chipped) form would give a pretty fun power-to-weight ratio. Sorry for going a bit off-topic there.

I doubt it would fit, the lump is quite wide to begin with, then add the turbos (not based on the narrow angle VR6 lump (i believe)) and is designed to fit inline. so you may have gearbox issue as the audi uses a transaxle.

[JonRB]

annodomini2 said:

not based on the narrow angle VR6 lump (i believe)

You're quite right. The Audi V6 has nothing in common with the VW VR6, despite them both being part of VAG.

A VR6 could be quite amusing in a Libra, and is an engine I know well having owned a Corrado VR6 for 9 years, but isn't going to put out enough power to make it worth considering unfortunately.

Looks like it might have to be a factory-built Libra V6 followed by a trip to QED then.

[Luego]

Ferg said:

I don't see why you couldn't fit the little 1.1 'K' Series, there are certainly some K3s about with that engine.

Don't forget that one we saw at Donnington. The white Spyder with the 1.1 in.

[Ferg]

Oi, can't I go anywhere without you spying on me?

[Luego]

Ferg said:

Oi, can't I go anywhere without you spying on me?

Obviously not.