2006 Elise - Drive-by-wire throttle
Discussion
According to all the press releases, the new Elise has a DBW throttle.
I'm very worried. Can anyone put my mind at ease?
BDW throttle: At one end of the scale you've got Renaults and Peugeots with about a second delay between throttle input and engine response, and at the other end of the scale you've got BMWs etc with a quarter of a second delay. Get either car onto a nice road or a track and it all falls apart as the foot-engine-brain feedback loop is broken and you can't balance the car.
I'm very worried. Can anyone put my mind at ease?
I know we all trust Lotus, but this is potentially disastrous! The main reason that I'm buying an Elise is that it has proper controls. The Elise is pretty much the only sub £30k car on the market that I would consider buying nowadays, as everything else has DBW throttle, power steering and servo brakes.
I'm very worried. Can anyone put my mind at ease?
I'm very worried. Can anyone put my mind at ease?
BDW throttle: At one end of the scale you've got Renaults and Peugeots with about a second delay between throttle input and engine response, and at the other end of the scale you've got BMWs etc with a quarter of a second delay. Get either car onto a nice road or a track and it all falls apart as the foot-engine-brain feedback loop is broken and you can't balance the car.
I'm very worried. Can anyone put my mind at ease?
I know we all trust Lotus, but this is potentially disastrous! The main reason that I'm buying an Elise is that it has proper controls. The Elise is pretty much the only sub £30k car on the market that I would consider buying nowadays, as everything else has DBW throttle, power steering and servo brakes.
I'm very worried. Can anyone put my mind at ease?
RobM77 said:
I'm very worried. Can anyone put my mind at ease?
I'm very worried. Can anyone put my mind at ease?
Don't know if my input will be enough?
I red that Lotus specificaly arranges already the throttle response for the 111R. Knowing their field and reputation for real driving experience I do not see a reason to change something if it is not to improve it.
The ABS is a good exemple for me, it is an improvement without impairing my driving experience, imho.
Purist will say it is too conventionnal, Ok but some progress are positive.
I'm still very concerned, but I see your point. Another improvement that Lotus cite for the '06 Elise is 'shorter pedal travel to facilitate heel and toe'. Bear in mind that BMW had to explain to me yesterday how I was confusing the engine management system by braking and blipping the throttle at the same time! Lotus are obviously more switched on to the needs of drivers than BMW.
I was astonished when Lotus put a brake servo on the Elise actually, I thought that the last thing the brakes were was heavy! They felt perfectly normal to me, like any other car with 'proper' brakes. I suppose this enabled the addition of ABS, which I do support, providing you can switch it off for track driving.
I'm not a 'stick in the mud' purist, but I just feel that the controls in a Formula Ford or a Caterham are perfect and beyond improvement. Electronic aids are just not necessary unless the effort to operate the controls becomes excessive. The whole idea of driving is that you feel at one with what's going on - like when you're playing tennis, the tennis racket should feel like an extension of your arm. This is how a Caterham or a Formula Ford feels when you're driving it, and it is this feeling that Lotus should promote in its cars. I've never tried a driving aid (not safety net, like ABS or DSC, but an *aid* like power steering), that doesn't dilute this experience. As good as powering steering can be (the Esprit is one of the best IMHO), it still feels like playing the guitar with gloves on to me (I could have chosen another analogy, but decided against it!).
I was astonished when Lotus put a brake servo on the Elise actually, I thought that the last thing the brakes were was heavy! They felt perfectly normal to me, like any other car with 'proper' brakes. I suppose this enabled the addition of ABS, which I do support, providing you can switch it off for track driving.
I'm not a 'stick in the mud' purist, but I just feel that the controls in a Formula Ford or a Caterham are perfect and beyond improvement. Electronic aids are just not necessary unless the effort to operate the controls becomes excessive. The whole idea of driving is that you feel at one with what's going on - like when you're playing tennis, the tennis racket should feel like an extension of your arm. This is how a Caterham or a Formula Ford feels when you're driving it, and it is this feeling that Lotus should promote in its cars. I've never tried a driving aid (not safety net, like ABS or DSC, but an *aid* like power steering), that doesn't dilute this experience. As good as powering steering can be (the Esprit is one of the best IMHO), it still feels like playing the guitar with gloves on to me (I could have chosen another analogy, but decided against it!).
A quarter of a second delay? You are having a laugh surely? I don't believe for a moment its that long unless its due to intervention of the stability management etc, or its just not that responsive an engine.
My car has DBW and its totally undetectable. Throttle response is simply awesome. So I wouldn't worry about the liz - I'm more upset at how ugly the new peddle box is
It's razor sharp in my saab 9000 turbo but hey, saab call it fly by wire 
Has been prone to a few faults with the traction control when it defaults back to cable throttle mode. When that happens it's like having a clutch pedal for acceleration, bloody hard to push down with any degree of finesse!
I assume lotus will give you a cable throttle to get you home?
Boosted.
Has been prone to a few faults with the traction control when it defaults back to cable throttle mode. When that happens it's like having a clutch pedal for acceleration, bloody hard to push down with any degree of finesse! I assume lotus will give you a cable throttle to get you home?
Boosted.
The Astra work car here has DBW throttle... it's AWFUL.... you literally have to hunt to find the right revs... every time you change gear and you pull the throttle back and dip the clutch as you do in a normal car sends the revs spiralling towards the redline as the throttle is still wide-open and closing when you disengage the clutch!!! Conversely, it means that when you let the clutch out and jump back on the throttle when you've selected a new gear there's no power for what seems like an age... it's the single-worst car I've ever driven.... (It's the last shape, not the current one... 1.8L Manual)
DanH said:
A quarter of a second delay? You are having a laugh surely? I don't believe for a moment its that long unless its due to intervention of the stability management etc, or its just not that responsive an engine.
That's a new BMW!! My 2000 model 330ci is actually much longer - I reckon about 3/4 of a second to a second. I've never put a stopwatch on it, but you have enough time to count to three audibly. On mini roundabouts you accelerate before the wheel is straight, anticipating when you will be on the straight and narrow. Before you ask, yes, it is lethal in the wet!
Drive any modern Vauxhall, Peugeot or Renault to see this effect at its worst!
Obviously Lotus will do a better job, but I've driven performance cars with DBW throttles and there is still not the response and linearity of a cable. I've yet to drive ANY car with a DBW throttle that I would be happy doing a track day in.
There's nothing wrong with drive-by-wire per se, nothing at all (as the guy with the GT3 said), but it's more the manufacturers/health and safety people using that capability to build in soft throttle response, throttle smoothing to prevent jerking, that sort of thing which makes it feel very limp.
I agree the old shape Astra is awful for this! throttle by wire has been around for ages and you'd probably be surprised at some of the cars that have it but you never noticed (if you ask me to produce a list, I can't
).
Russell
I agree the old shape Astra is awful for this! throttle by wire has been around for ages and you'd probably be surprised at some of the cars that have it but you never noticed (if you ask me to produce a list, I can't
). Russell
I'd say test drive it first before you start panicking. Progress doesn't necessarily mean its not going to be any good.
What I would say though is that the electrics have always been a weak point in the Lotus world have they not? From a pessimistic POV it's just another thing to go wrong which you won't be able to fix yourself.
What I would say though is that the electrics have always been a weak point in the Lotus world have they not? From a pessimistic POV it's just another thing to go wrong which you won't be able to fix yourself.
No disrespect intended to anyone, but a whole load of people that I've spoken to don't notice the DBW throttle delay. Maybe I'm not a good enough driver to compensate, but I can't cope with any delay at all in a car. The whole point of fast or satisfying driving for me is to *balance* a car in a bend, and if there's a delay, even if it is tiny - I just can't drive the car properly. I've driven some very good DBW throttle setups, but have yet to drive any car that has it fitted that I would buy.
I'm going ot be buying a current Elise soon (cable throttle), but would like to buy one in the future. I will of course give Lotus the benefit of the doubt and test drive one first, but I have this nagging feeling I'll end up at Caterham!
I'm going ot be buying a current Elise soon (cable throttle), but would like to buy one in the future. I will of course give Lotus the benefit of the doubt and test drive one first, but I have this nagging feeling I'll end up at Caterham!
Aw come on. No one has driven a DBW set up in a 'liz, how does anyone know it is bad? And "Im going to buy a cateram" is throwing your toys out of the pram. Untill someone has driven it and then knows it doesnt work then this is speculation of the worst type.
Remember it is DBW to save weight. That adds up and you get more car for less kgs. Isnt that the point?
Good on you lotus, not afraid to have a go with new ideas to save weight.
Remember it is DBW to save weight. That adds up and you get more car for less kgs. Isnt that the point?
Good on you lotus, not afraid to have a go with new ideas to save weight.
RobM77 said:
Good point - never. They even made the best of FWD with the 1980s Elan. And even that dreadful gearbox in the Esprit didn't mar the car because the rest of it was so good.
Why not the benefit of the doubt?
Some people deal with change so badly, I think a lot of people want us to all be driving 118bhp S1's
Lotus put together such brilliant driving machines, if this is really bad it will be the first time!
Gassing Station | Elise/Exige/Europa/340R | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff