My trees causing neighbours subsidence
Discussion
busa_rush said:
Had a letter from my neighbour saying that my trees are causing some kind of subsidence in his extension.
Now, he built the extension a few years ago, probably 1990 or thereabouts and the trees have been there for over 50 years, one of them must be at least 70 years old. It was his choice to build his extension so close to the trees. (Trees are just inside my boundary)
I'm looking at several routes, firstly that he shouldn't have built his extension so close to the trees - is this a valid argument ?
Another option is that the building wasn't constructed with due consideration to the trees - the trees were never going to shrink, only get bigger - the the foundations ought to have been buit to cope with this.
Is there anything I can do ? The boundary is about 30m long and has about 8 large (50ft ?) trees on it. The trees are primarily tall trees, not wide if you know what I mean
It just seems mad that somebody can build a building close to trees then 15 years later complain that the trees are damaging the building.
Thanks.
So many aspects to this (I’m a Civil Engineer BTW)
The reason for the subsidence needs to be established, it my be that the trees had absolutely no part in it. It may actually be a cast of settlement not subsidence (big difference) to be honest it more then 99% settlement.
The trees sound as if they were pretty mature when the extension was built, do the roots extend under his extension.
It may be a building control issue, as they should have been aware of the tress when the plans went in.
Either way I can’t see the neighbour being able to pin anything on you.
What is he actually saying? Does he want you to pay for some repairs?
I suppose it's a little like people who buy a house under a flight path and then complain about the noise. Have a chat with him, he may just be speculating that the trees are causing damage. Let him pay for a surveyors report to actually determine the cause. IF the trees are the cause then you could just tell him to go away but you may have to be prepared for it to go as far as lawyers at dawn. A compromise would be to get him to pay/contribute towards getting the tree trimmed/felled and at least you can get the issue sorted between yourselves at a lower cost.
We've been having an aimiable chat with our neighbour because we both want the oak and cedar tree that are on their side of the boundry to have a haircut. Nothing too drastic but enough to bring a touch more light into both properties.
Both trees are covered by a TPO and we've been gleaning information from the local council's website about how to get the required planning to proceed.
The website has a whole section on it all about trees and their implications. The section is called "Help, I've bought a Tree with a House in the Garden".
This title kinda sums up the attitude councils take when it comes to protecting trees (A good thing, btw) and I suspect that although the council would be sympathetic to your neighbour's cause they would probably advise him not too have built so close to a tree in the first place.
It is his problem, not yours. Unless his build affects your tree.
Both trees are covered by a TPO and we've been gleaning information from the local council's website about how to get the required planning to proceed.
The website has a whole section on it all about trees and their implications. The section is called "Help, I've bought a Tree with a House in the Garden".
This title kinda sums up the attitude councils take when it comes to protecting trees (A good thing, btw) and I suspect that although the council would be sympathetic to your neighbour's cause they would probably advise him not too have built so close to a tree in the first place.
It is his problem, not yours. Unless his build affects your tree.
a2z said:
I suppose it's a little like people who buy a house under a flight path and then complain about the noise. Have a chat with him, he may just be speculating that the trees are causing damage. Let him pay for a surveyors report to actually determine the cause. IF the trees are the cause then you could just tell him to go away but you may have to be prepared for it to go as far as lawyers at dawn. A compromise would be to get him to pay/contribute towards getting the tree trimmed/felled and at least you can get the issue sorted between yourselves at a lower cost.
Must disagree with most of that - Notify YOUR Buildings Insurer immediately if not already done as liabilities will almost certainly be covered under that policy. They will pay for a surveyor if necessary.
The dispute itself is similar to an issue I have at the mo from the opposite side although no damage caused as yet - Simply my concern that neighbour's young and untrimmed oak adjacent to boundary MAY cause damage to my property in the future. A friendly word was well received by him earlier this year but no action as yet.
As far as a contribution being requested for trimming / felling etc, sorry but that is the tree owner's responsibility who also needs to ensure that it is not causing damage to third party property. Litigation is a last resort only as it's never 100% certain however strong your case, is always expensive and sometimes dwarfs the original dispute. Often, common sense and one's ego don't fit together too well and when mixed with Lawyers tenacious appetite for earning fees, is a disaster.
Whoever was there first is frankly irrelevant - If your roots or other parts of your tree extend BEYOND your boundary AND cause damage, then you are responsible and liable whether insured or not!
hth
As far as a contribution being requested for trimming / felling etc, sorry but that is the tree owner's responsibility who also needs to ensure that it is not causing damage to third party property. Litigation is a last resort only as it's never 100% certain however strong your case, is always expensive and sometimes dwarfs the original dispute. Often, common sense and one's ego don't fit together too well and when mixed with Lawyers tenacious appetite for earning fees, is a disaster.
This was the main point that I was trying to make. Its best to try and sort this out as frindly neighbours if it comes to that as it's really only the lawyers that win. Anyway, its a long way off and may never come to that.
My advice is DON'T try and get advice from a forum, as the issue is no doubt more complex than has been described, and the old saying, opinions are like @rsholes is defiantly prevalent.
Talk you your neighbour first. Find out what he wants.
Under no circumstances should you admit liability.
Reasonable steps should have been taken in the initial design of the foundations, knowing that the trees were close.
Don’t forget the trees may not be contributing to your neighbours problems.
Talk you your neighbour first. Find out what he wants.
Under no circumstances should you admit liability.
Reasonable steps should have been taken in the initial design of the foundations, knowing that the trees were close.
Don’t forget the trees may not be contributing to your neighbours problems.
What's the relationship with your neighbour worth to you, more than some lliandi's? If he wants you to pay for the extention then obviousley he can swivel, but maybe you could negociate getting rid if he pays for a tall fence with some ivy on it or something?
OR If you get rid of the trees, would that cause more damage than just leaving them in place but keeping them well trimmed? Maybe a tree surgeon could advise?
OR If you get rid of the trees, would that cause more damage than just leaving them in place but keeping them well trimmed? Maybe a tree surgeon could advise?
As Slim Boy has aluded, it is a very complex issue.
All buildings settle to some extent - this is why brick walls have movement joints every 8m. It is only when they settle differentially that there is a problem - ie one part settles more than others, leading to cracking. There is an initial settlement period for all new structures.
Possible reasons for your neighbours problem are
1. Drought, leading to drying of the soil - excacerbated by the trees, if they are close and large.
2. Leaking water mains - the water washes away the supporting strata.
3. Leaking drains - see 2
4. Mining in the area
Chopping down the trees might have a very negative result. If you live on clay then with the trees not sucking that moisture, the clay expands - heaves. This could raise any nearby structures.
Sounds to me like your neighbours builder or designer didn't take account of the proximity of trees. They should have used a compressible sheet to line the foundation trench, on the side facing the trees.
Get detailed advice from a Building Surveyor
All buildings settle to some extent - this is why brick walls have movement joints every 8m. It is only when they settle differentially that there is a problem - ie one part settles more than others, leading to cracking. There is an initial settlement period for all new structures.
Possible reasons for your neighbours problem are
1. Drought, leading to drying of the soil - excacerbated by the trees, if they are close and large.
2. Leaking water mains - the water washes away the supporting strata.
3. Leaking drains - see 2
4. Mining in the area
Chopping down the trees might have a very negative result. If you live on clay then with the trees not sucking that moisture, the clay expands - heaves. This could raise any nearby structures.
Sounds to me like your neighbours builder or designer didn't take account of the proximity of trees. They should have used a compressible sheet to line the foundation trench, on the side facing the trees.
Get detailed advice from a Building Surveyor
As a property lawyer I have to support the get yourself some good advice approach and notify your insurers of the potential claim and see how they wish to approach it.
If you've got 50 foot high trees close to the boundary the roots are probably travelling about the same distance. I'm no litigator so I don't know all the wrongs and the rights but your roots are trespassing on his land.
We see this from the other side of the fence (boom boom!) as the rental house we're in has a garage that is subsiding badly and surprise surprise there is a 40 or 50 foot conifer tree on the boundary next to it - we seem to be the only people who can see that there is likely to be a link between the tree and the fact that the garage is falling down (and the 1930's house has some fairly major cracking).
If you've got 50 foot high trees close to the boundary the roots are probably travelling about the same distance. I'm no litigator so I don't know all the wrongs and the rights but your roots are trespassing on his land.
We see this from the other side of the fence (boom boom!) as the rental house we're in has a garage that is subsiding badly and surprise surprise there is a 40 or 50 foot conifer tree on the boundary next to it - we seem to be the only people who can see that there is likely to be a link between the tree and the fact that the garage is falling down (and the 1930's house has some fairly major cracking).
Be careful, a friend of mine had a tree trimed as it was dropping branches on her property. All done by an arborist etc, but the council invoked a TPO that she was unaware of. The court case is due next month! Whatever happens I would advise you to check with the council.
BTW, if there is a TPO, I doubt anything can be done to the tree anyway.
BTW, if there is a TPO, I doubt anything can be done to the tree anyway.
My unqualified opinion (see, I've got one too!) is that the tree (whether or not mature) should have been considered when the extension was built. In any case, it may or may not be contributing; could just be shoddy building work. OF course, if the tree is contributing, removing it may actually make matters worse as the roots will be left in place (obviously) and without a tree to support, they'll wither and shrink, letting the building above drop down into the gap that's left!
pdV6 said:There isn't sufficient volume of roots for this to occur.
OF course, if the tree is contributing, removing it may actually make matters worse as the roots will be left in place (obviously) and without a tree to support, they'll wither and shrink, letting the building above drop down into the gap that's left!
A large tree will take a considerable amount of water from the soil. Once there is no tree to take this water it causes the ground to expand. Clay is especially bad for this. It is called heave and it can raise buildings, causing cracking.
The only way to ascertain whether it is settlement or subsidence is to monitor the cracks in the buildings, ideally over a minimum of 12 months.
Further reading
www.rics.org/NR/exeres/7CA2C8CB-D8D2-497E-9C5D-F3A18B1A9B73.htm
www.homecheck.co.uk/hcf/Welcome.do;jsessionid=052412FC1764E1A9E90F7E567676F9B4
I had an extension built about 5 years ago, because my neighbour had not long cut down some leylandi very close by the inspector said my footings had to be 10 feet deep. This to me was not a practical solution as my neighbours property was only a path width away and I was worried this would cause problems for them. We had to get a piling company in to prepare the footings, some of the holes went down in excess of 25 feet then filled with steel & concrete. There has been no problems with the building, the house may fall down one day but the extension is going nowhere.
A building I am currently involved in is being built on what used to be a landfill site. The loadbearing strata is anything up to 30m down, which is too deep for conventional piling systems.
To get around it we have had to pump concrete into the ground, from 10m down to 20m to create a stable layer of soil under the footprint of the building.It is called compaction grouting.
10-15m piles are then drilled into this layer. A ground beam then bears across the piles.
Very interesting project - and very expensive system.
To get around it we have had to pump concrete into the ground, from 10m down to 20m to create a stable layer of soil under the footprint of the building.It is called compaction grouting.
10-15m piles are then drilled into this layer. A ground beam then bears across the piles.
Very interesting project - and very expensive system.
Another thing to bear in mind is that tree roots are not only extremely powerful and can grown many many metres outwards, but they also suck a hell of a lot of moisture out of the ground causing instability in the sub soil sometimes.
A neighbour of mine in Malta has had trouble with next door's large tree roots punching a hole through the side of his swimming pool..... causing £3000 worth of damage...
The best place for a tree is in a park (imo).....
A neighbour of mine in Malta has had trouble with next door's large tree roots punching a hole through the side of his swimming pool..... causing £3000 worth of damage...
The best place for a tree is in a park (imo).....
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