Bus Lanes Notices

[burwoodman]

All along Commercial Road in east London there is a Bus Lane. There are Bus lanes warning signs all the way down. I know from past experience that it doesn't operate on a Sunday and this is clearly displayed on the sign. Last Sunday I used the Bus lane and then noticed that the first warning sign I saw has black spray paint covering over the permitted times. i.e The sign just reda "BUS LANE"-every sign-about 10 in total had spray paint over the times. I presumed this was vadalism but now Im not so sure-sure the council can't get away with fining people based on some amateurish both job.

I thought/think the sign must state BUS LANE-At all times as a minimum.

[Dwight VanDriver]

Depends what it states in the Traffic Order making the Bus Lane or an amendment if one made.

Normally, as far as I am aware sign 959 (blue bus sign (may also have pedal cycle)) and accompanied by a separate sign 961 underneath with times of operation. Either way if done by LA or vandal signing doesn't seem to be in accordance with Regs. Ammunition I would have thought for an appeal if ticketed.

dvd

[mcflurry]

Dwight VanDriver said:

Depends what it states in the Traffic Order making the Bus Lane or an amendment if one made. Normally, as far as I am aware sign 959 (blue bus sign (may also have pedal cycle)) and accompanied by a separate sign 961 underneath with times of operation. Either way if done by LA or vandal signing doesn't seem to be in accordance with Regs. Ammunition I would have thought for an appeal if ticketed. dvd

Try and take a picture before they update it...

[burwoodman]

AS I thought-i had some a55hole bus right up my a55 flashing me. I hope they do ticket me. The signs are still the same. It must be some idiot council contractor-the road is about 1 mile long with 6 or 8 signs-no vandal is that motivated.

[tvrgit]

Dwight VanDriver said:

Depends what it states in the Traffic Order making the Bus Lane or an amendment if one made. Normally, as far as I am aware sign 959 (blue bus sign (may also have pedal cycle)) and accompanied by a separate sign 961 underneath with times of operation. Either way if done by LA or vandal signing doesn't seem to be in accordance with Regs. Ammunition I would have thought for an appeal if ticketed. dvd

First time I've felt it necessary to disagree with DVD.

Sure the LA can't be responsible for vandalism? If signs damaged or removed then burden on LA to repair / replace asap, but if "reasonable care" by LA then surely bus lane still valid?

In other words, if I spray two little arcs onto a "30" sign, the speed limit doesn't change automatically to 80?

Sounds more like council or contractor has suspended the bus lane and taped over the times, rather than properly bag the signs or put up "suspended" notices. Check to see if there are any A4 printed notices fixed to lamp posts with a Temp TRO to suspend the bus lane for the duration of road works etc.

[burwoodman]

Wrong point- They didn't bag the sign or tape over it. they sprayed (very roughly) over the permitted times. That does not make the Bus Lane restricted. Previously it was permitted to use it during the hours I was doing so.

I have never seen any Bus Lane sign which merely says "BUS LANE"-they all have times of operation or "AT ALL TIMES".

[kenp]

Dwight VanDriver said:

Depends what it states in the Traffic Order making the Bus Lane or an amendment if one made. Normally, as far as I am aware sign 959 (blue bus sign (may also have pedal cycle)) and accompanied by a separate sign 961 underneath with times of operation. Either way if done by LA or vandal signing doesn't seem to be in accordance with Regs. Ammunition I would have thought for an appeal if ticketed. dvd

Our local one has taxis as well as pedal cycle

[Dwight VanDriver]

tvrgit

Basically at heart I am with you on your sentiments and when I first joined the honourable profession of Plodmanship in the late 50's then matters were dealt with and at Court in the spirit of the law. This concept over time became eroded and the pendulum swung to the absolute letter of the law. A good example of this was the Road Safety Act that brought in the breathalizer. So we had first cases where the driver was absolutely ratarzed beyond the limit but because the officer requesting the test was not in full uniform, driver had smoked in the preceeding 20 minutes or a plethora of minor procedural errors that ignored the fact the driver was two, three times over the limit and allowed him to walk free of punishment.

So under this current regime of letter of the law then Reg 11 TSGD 2002 states that signs have to conform with those in the Regs and I believe in the Order somewhere it will state that signing in accordance with TSGD. Those on the bus lane do not appear to do so.

dvd

dvd

[tvrgit]

Burwoodman - ok you're right I hadn't picked up that you were in the bus lane outside its normal hours anyway.

DVD - I'm with you on the premise that stuff has to be signed properly or can't be enforced, and the onus to get it right is on the LA. Unfortunately many don't. In Edinburgh recently the BiB have been refusing to enforce bits of the new city centre traffic management scheme, because it wasn't properly signed.

TROs and signing is more complicated than it looks, was once done by guys who specialised in that and did nothing else, and now tends to be "area teams" who just might not have the experience. I well remember a guy coing and asking me where he could get yellow paint to change some yellow lines that a Councillor had asked for. I asked him if he'd changed the Order. He didn't even know what a Traffic Reg Order was... scary.

[7db]

DVD - assume in fact that this is not a traffic offence, but will be dealt with under the TfL "powers" -- which enable them to take money off London drivers for no apparent reason (as far as I understand it).

I think that will make a defence (appeal) relying on "letter of the law" type reasoning referring to TSRGD less reliable - as even if it goes to adjudication, one doesn't know how it will be settled. Is there even formal adjudication for bus lane driving?

[Dwight VanDriver]

7db

Sorry in haste but you should get the gist....

If LA have been granted the Permitted and special parking area Order then they can also apply for similar and be an "Approved" Authority so that bus lane offences are discrimilised and they can issue PCN's

refer you to:

The Bus Lane Contraventions (Approved Local Authorities)(England) Order 2005
(List of LAs decriming bus lane offences)

The Bus Lane Contraventions (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Ebnforcement) (England) Regs 2005
Regs concerned

The Tribunals and Inquiries (Bus Lane Adjudicators)(England) Order 2005
Appeals

The Bus Lanes (Approved Devices)(England) Order 2005
Cameras.

Under parking offences then it seems if signing is not as per schedule the Appeal Adjudicator takes this on board and deals favourably which is why one should reject the first refusal of an appeal from LA and go the full course. Mind you it also seems that they are not impressed with very minor deficiencies. i.e sign present but turned round....

dvd

[iaint]

Just a minor point - It's likely that the bus lane falls under the care of TfL and not the Council or GLA, this is definately the case if the road forms part of TLRN (TfL Road Network). I'll have a look on the map for it later on if I have time.

Iain

[Dwight VanDriver]

I think you will find that the London Local Authorities Acts of 1995 and 2000 relating to bus lanes so as to apply them to Transport of London like the Parking aspect.

dvd

[V8 Archie]

I hate those signs with a passion (even when they aren't spray painted). You get the thing all over London with random times painted on each one. In busy traffic (when it's most important to use the bus lane if allowed to imporve traffic flow) it can be very difficult to read the details as there are so many other things happening on/near the road that are worthy of attention.

[docjan]

Oh I love those signs, most people never bother with them but I always catch em, means I get a virtually empty lane whilst everyones on the right waiting for the cows to go home.
No doubt they think I'm breaking the law.