Early Targa/Coupe argument to settle
Discussion
lanesra10 and me have been having a discussion on another thread about pre-993 Targas and what they're like to live with.
Having had both in 3.2 format, my opinion is that the roof is pretty crude and suffers from significant wind noise that you are unlikely to eradicate and that the Coupe is a much better option as a daily car.
lanesra10 feels that, with the right condition and fitment, a Targa suffers barely more wind noise than Coupe.
So I thought that it would be an interesting post to get the opinions of others out there who had had experience of both.
Having had both in 3.2 format, my opinion is that the roof is pretty crude and suffers from significant wind noise that you are unlikely to eradicate and that the Coupe is a much better option as a daily car.
lanesra10 feels that, with the right condition and fitment, a Targa suffers barely more wind noise than Coupe.
So I thought that it would be an interesting post to get the opinions of others out there who had had experience of both.
I don't know about the wind noise, I've never been in a 911 targa, but what the heck, it's an old car. The noise is all part of the experience IMO.
The thing that puts me off the targa, and the cab for that matter, is that the chassis is less stiff. In and of it's self, that a relatively well understood property of topless motoring. Less well understood is that the flex in the chassis leads to stress corrosion. Combined with it's reduced ability to resist water ingress, I'd suggest that the targa and cab variant 911's are going to be be more rot prone.
Edited to add;
In some respects, this is a good reason to buy one. There will be less of them around in future.
>> Edited by dilbert on Friday 18th November 21:07
The thing that puts me off the targa, and the cab for that matter, is that the chassis is less stiff. In and of it's self, that a relatively well understood property of topless motoring. Less well understood is that the flex in the chassis leads to stress corrosion. Combined with it's reduced ability to resist water ingress, I'd suggest that the targa and cab variant 911's are going to be be more rot prone.
Edited to add;
In some respects, this is a good reason to buy one. There will be less of them around in future.
>> Edited by dilbert on Friday 18th November 21:07
My quotes were as follows and are with regards to a 964 only "Targa had no real windnoise at 90mph with roof on"
"If you have a properly fitted Targa Top with none of the front edge protruding above the body work, it isnt at all noisy only slightly more so than a Coupe"
original posting see www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?p=3&f=48&t=222351&h=0
"If you have a properly fitted Targa Top with none of the front edge protruding above the body work, it isnt at all noisy only slightly more so than a Coupe"
original posting see www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?p=3&f=48&t=222351&h=0
I have had a number of Targa and never suffered from leaks, squeaks or wind noise. At the end of the day the targa roof is a wearable item - if you look after it and make sure it is correctly adjusted their is absolutely no reason why is should cause an issue.
I have never had a water leak, and it creaks less than my 996 Cab. Lots of people form opions based on anecdotal comments rather than practical experience, but i think once the summer comes the Targa is the perfect compromise.
As for long term appeal, the Targa was a lot less common so personally, i like the fact that its a bit less common and a is able to feel like a Coupe in winter and a Cab in summer.
Al
90 C2 Targa
>> Edited by AJKOK1 on Saturday 19th November 09:25
>> Edited by AJKOK1 on Saturday 19th November 09:29
I have never had a water leak, and it creaks less than my 996 Cab. Lots of people form opions based on anecdotal comments rather than practical experience, but i think once the summer comes the Targa is the perfect compromise.
As for long term appeal, the Targa was a lot less common so personally, i like the fact that its a bit less common and a is able to feel like a Coupe in winter and a Cab in summer.
Al
90 C2 Targa
>> Edited by AJKOK1 on Saturday 19th November 09:25
>> Edited by AJKOK1 on Saturday 19th November 09:29
Interesting that it's 964 owners that have come to the Targas defence.
Does that mean that there was some kind of improvement on that model - I know of no evidence to support that - or are 964 owners naturally more tolerant?
By the way, no one would dispute the Targa's merits in the summer. It's daily roof on driving that we're talking about here.
Does that mean that there was some kind of improvement on that model - I know of no evidence to support that - or are 964 owners naturally more tolerant?
By the way, no one would dispute the Targa's merits in the summer. It's daily roof on driving that we're talking about here.
I run an 89 3.2 Targa and from my experience over 3 years mine doesn't leak (and it's been in some deluges I can tell you). However I also looked at a number before I bought and I would say that there is an ability to leak. I also took out a 964 in the rain and it was like being in a shower so I would agree with the comment that if the seals are OK and the roof adjusted it will be dry if not don't buy it unless you are willing to have the seals fitted professionally.
With regard to the wind noise I find that at anything over 70 with the targa on is noisy (especially on a motorway at a constant speed. However unless it's raining why have the top on?
With it off the noise over 80 is relatively high but there is little buffeting and the sound of the engine is great. Unless yours is a daily driver having fresh air and hearing the motor is better, in my opinion, than sweating to death in a car whose ventilation is marginal. Also this old chestnut about the chassis flex is unliley to be an issue unless you track it and even then I suspect that you would only notice it if you got staright from one car to an identical one. Issues such as tyres, ride height, set up etc are more likely to be an issue
With regard to the wind noise I find that at anything over 70 with the targa on is noisy (especially on a motorway at a constant speed. However unless it's raining why have the top on?
With it off the noise over 80 is relatively high but there is little buffeting and the sound of the engine is great. Unless yours is a daily driver having fresh air and hearing the motor is better, in my opinion, than sweating to death in a car whose ventilation is marginal. Also this old chestnut about the chassis flex is unliley to be an issue unless you track it and even then I suspect that you would only notice it if you got staright from one car to an identical one. Issues such as tyres, ride height, set up etc are more likely to be an issue
I've not been in a targa, but I've owned a 964 C4 cabriolet for almost 5 years now. Wind noise starts at a fairly high speed so not a problem. Driving with the rear window open is by far the best way to listen to that wonderful engine. A cab makes the most versatile of cars. A front strut brace plus lowering with progressive springs sorted the handling, so I've got a car that drives well. Plus by either unzipping the rear window or taking the top down altogether, trips to Homebase or IKEA are no problem. You can get 3 square metres of decking planks or quite large flat pack shelving units in no problem. And when my son forgets his key, I can put my two section ladder in the car and zip the window up afterwards before I drive over so that he can climb up and scramble through his window.
Regards
Kismet
Regards
Kismet
I didn't want to sully the other thread, so I'm glad you started this one.
I've been fortunate in having driven a lot of targas - my first 911, way back in 1986, was a 1977 SC Targa. I found that the wind noise could be reduced by:-
1) ensuring the that front seam stayed below the windscreen "lip" - on worn roofs, this entailed fitting the top and then manually pushing the seam down.
2) lubricating the seals - vaseline works well
3) ensuring that the seals that run round the targa hoop are all in very good condition
4) preserving the integrity of a good top by not folding it, but by stowing it, Ferari 308 style, behind the seats if at all practicable.
For some reason, all 964 targas were very much quieter than impact bumper or pre impact bumer cars that I drove. I think that the design of the 964 era roofs changed slightly - certainly the catches did, and I attributed this quietness to the change in design, to the age of the relative cars and perhaps even to the change in suspension. But my friend currently owns a 964 targa which has covered some considerable miles and yet the car is still very much quieter than the impact bumper cars of old, which rules out the age related theory.
The advantage of the targa is that the car is far lighter inside, there's more headroom for taller individuals in the rear and it is indeed cheaper than a coupe. Equally targas can be harder to sell and their lines are not as pretty as the coupe's.
As Clubsport said on the other thread, it is important to buy the best example of a car that you can (almost) regardless of colour and spec. If I were in the market for a 911 I'd be happy to look at targas too. IIRC I spotted a well priced Supersport targa recently, for instance.
I've been fortunate in having driven a lot of targas - my first 911, way back in 1986, was a 1977 SC Targa. I found that the wind noise could be reduced by:-
1) ensuring the that front seam stayed below the windscreen "lip" - on worn roofs, this entailed fitting the top and then manually pushing the seam down.
2) lubricating the seals - vaseline works well
3) ensuring that the seals that run round the targa hoop are all in very good condition
4) preserving the integrity of a good top by not folding it, but by stowing it, Ferari 308 style, behind the seats if at all practicable.
For some reason, all 964 targas were very much quieter than impact bumper or pre impact bumer cars that I drove. I think that the design of the 964 era roofs changed slightly - certainly the catches did, and I attributed this quietness to the change in design, to the age of the relative cars and perhaps even to the change in suspension. But my friend currently owns a 964 targa which has covered some considerable miles and yet the car is still very much quieter than the impact bumper cars of old, which rules out the age related theory.
The advantage of the targa is that the car is far lighter inside, there's more headroom for taller individuals in the rear and it is indeed cheaper than a coupe. Equally targas can be harder to sell and their lines are not as pretty as the coupe's.
As Clubsport said on the other thread, it is important to buy the best example of a car that you can (almost) regardless of colour and spec. If I were in the market for a 911 I'd be happy to look at targas too. IIRC I spotted a well priced Supersport targa recently, for instance.
The only wind noise I notice in my targa (964) in normal driving comes from the area around the door mirrors which is a problem for all 964s, not just targas. In this respect, my targa has no more wind noise than a coupe. I believe there is a fix for this (something to do with the plastic membrane inside the door), but I've not bothered as it isn't too bad.
Above 145mph, wind noise increases a lot, probably because the targa seals at the side can't cope with the pressure difference.
I used to have massive wind noise around the bit where the side of the roof meets the top of the driver's and passenger windows. This was because of a gap caused by a worn seal where wind could get in, now fixed. I've also experienced this in other targas as well.
If I had to choose a daily use car though, it would be the coupe, although it is not unknown for the standard fit sunroof to leak for the same reason as leaky targas - knackered seals.
Above 145mph, wind noise increases a lot, probably because the targa seals at the side can't cope with the pressure difference.
I used to have massive wind noise around the bit where the side of the roof meets the top of the driver's and passenger windows. This was because of a gap caused by a worn seal where wind could get in, now fixed. I've also experienced this in other targas as well.
If I had to choose a daily use car though, it would be the coupe, although it is not unknown for the standard fit sunroof to leak for the same reason as leaky targas - knackered seals.
rubystone said:
Equally targas can be harder to sell and their lines are not as pretty as the coupe's.
It's a bit a generalisation to say that they are not as pretty as the coupe. The looks of the car are totally subjective and I love the look of the Targa.
Also, I get a bit tired of people talking about the lack of body stiffness and the subsequent effect on handling. The Targa is not as stiff as a coupe, but is better than a convertible in this respect. I'd be interested to see how many drivers could actually make the superior stiffness of their coupe count on the road.. Not many I think
>> Edited by mach on Monday 21st November 09:49
Of course it's subjective, but would you argue that a GPW targa is attractive? In fact, for me, the ugliest version has to be a (mercifully rare) 964 targa in GPW.
To my mind, the targa worked most unsuccessfully on the 964 and most successfully in brushed stianless steel form on non-sport pre 1979 impact bumper cars. Again, all IMHO and subjective...naturally.
The rear window adds massively to the stiffness of the targa structure.
To my mind, the targa worked most unsuccessfully on the 964 and most successfully in brushed stianless steel form on non-sport pre 1979 impact bumper cars. Again, all IMHO and subjective...naturally.
The rear window adds massively to the stiffness of the targa structure.
Everyone always harps on about the seals on a targa roof when in fact it`s usually the roof it`s self that is the cause of wind noise. As has been said already providing the front lip of the roof sits below the top edge of the upper screen surround you should be ok. Ironically fitting new front seals can actually aggravate the problem as they can keep the front of the roof higher.
The cabriolet has a totally different front seal arrangement to the targa and so is unlikely to give any wind noise.
Henry
The cabriolet has a totally different front seal arrangement to the targa and so is unlikely to give any wind noise.
Henry
I've got a 3.2 Targa, 1986, not the prettiest, the flat roof spoils the 911 line, never leaked, very quick to remove and replace, great with lid off even in this weather, I'll defend the car to the hilt, but in reality the wind noise with the lid on is much louder than the coupe. Dynamically not too far away from the hard top and certainly not noticeable in real world conditions.
IMHO
IMHO
Some other comments from 964 smartgroups
My first Porsche was a 90 Targa C2. Then I changed to
the 94 Cab C2 and missed the ability to talk at normal
voice at 100mph that I could in the targa, tops up.
The targa gives you the sun with a better open air
feel without the real turbulence of the cab. It's a
bit more rigid than the cab too. With the top on, my
targa never leaked and only had probably 5db more
noise than the coupe at speed.
We have had a a 90 C2 Targa for the past three years. It has from time to time has been pressed into service as a daily driver and transported us around France, Spain. Italy etc.in comfort and speed. when required. The roof was noisy to begin with but a refurb by Southbound made a monumental difference. and 3 figure speedo readings are now realistic without getting your head blown off or having your rear seat passengers sucked out.
It's the best of both worlds. go for it!
I think the short answer with 964's is its all down to wear and tear and as long as its fitted properly and in good repair then they are not noisy
My first Porsche was a 90 Targa C2. Then I changed to
the 94 Cab C2 and missed the ability to talk at normal
voice at 100mph that I could in the targa, tops up.
The targa gives you the sun with a better open air
feel without the real turbulence of the cab. It's a
bit more rigid than the cab too. With the top on, my
targa never leaked and only had probably 5db more
noise than the coupe at speed.
We have had a a 90 C2 Targa for the past three years. It has from time to time has been pressed into service as a daily driver and transported us around France, Spain. Italy etc.in comfort and speed. when required. The roof was noisy to begin with but a refurb by Southbound made a monumental difference. and 3 figure speedo readings are now realistic without getting your head blown off or having your rear seat passengers sucked out.
It's the best of both worlds. go for it!
I think the short answer with 964's is its all down to wear and tear and as long as its fitted properly and in good repair then they are not noisy
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