Griff handling
Discussion
Hi guys, I was wondering if you could answer a question that's been bothering me for ages. I'm 19 and a TVR fan, just restored an MGB (yeah I know I know 
) but am dreaming of getting a TVR sometime after graduating next year if I can scrape together the cash!
Anyway, I've heard some pretty different oppinions aout how TVRs handle so as the experts what do you think? How do they (particularly Griffs)cope with the twisties, grip etc compared to other cars you've driven???
Cheers, Steve
) but am dreaming of getting a TVR sometime after graduating next year if I can scrape together the cash! Anyway, I've heard some pretty different oppinions aout how TVRs handle so as the experts what do you think? How do they (particularly Griffs)cope with the twisties, grip etc compared to other cars you've driven???
Cheers, Steve
Griff handling far exceeds most drivers ability to control it. Fast cars need good experienced drivers to reveal their potential. To become a good experienced driver means learning new skills and techniques and is often the one aspect that most forget about as we are all great drivers... :;
Compared to an MGB, Griffiths are leagues ahead. Compared to a Lotus, they are crude, bordering on lethal.
The basic handling of the Griffith is predictable enough provided you remember that you have a huge amount of torque in a relatively light, short wheelbase, RWD car, but the steering feel and chassis feedback is relatively poor.
Period road tests allude to an imbalance with rear damping and on my 500 (with standard Bilstein dampers) I found that whilst the car felt fine 99.9% of the time, encountering bumps or cambers in the middle of a fast bend could sometimes result in a very (read:trouser changing) unsettled reaction from the back end.
People report that the cars feel much better on aftermarket (Nitron, Gaz or whatever) dampers but I never got that far with mine - I'm afraid I came to the conclusion that it was just too much of a blunt instrument after a lifetime of Lotuses, so I've swapped back to a Sport 160 Elise.
To be fair, though, compared to an MGB any TVR will feel pretty composed, provided you remember that you have a much bigger surfeit of power over grip and that the throttle pedal therefore needs to be treated with caution unless the car is pointed in a straight line.
The Speed 6 generation cars that I've driven (Tuscan S and T350) are much better; the (relative) lack of torque helps, but the chassis feels better set-up anyway and they are far less intimidating to drive.
>> Edited by Sam_68 on Saturday 19th November 08:58
The basic handling of the Griffith is predictable enough provided you remember that you have a huge amount of torque in a relatively light, short wheelbase, RWD car, but the steering feel and chassis feedback is relatively poor.
Period road tests allude to an imbalance with rear damping and on my 500 (with standard Bilstein dampers) I found that whilst the car felt fine 99.9% of the time, encountering bumps or cambers in the middle of a fast bend could sometimes result in a very (read:trouser changing) unsettled reaction from the back end.
People report that the cars feel much better on aftermarket (Nitron, Gaz or whatever) dampers but I never got that far with mine - I'm afraid I came to the conclusion that it was just too much of a blunt instrument after a lifetime of Lotuses, so I've swapped back to a Sport 160 Elise.
To be fair, though, compared to an MGB any TVR will feel pretty composed, provided you remember that you have a much bigger surfeit of power over grip and that the throttle pedal therefore needs to be treated with caution unless the car is pointed in a straight line.
The Speed 6 generation cars that I've driven (Tuscan S and T350) are much better; the (relative) lack of torque helps, but the chassis feels better set-up anyway and they are far less intimidating to drive.
>> Edited by Sam_68 on Saturday 19th November 08:58
I used to own an MGB GT many years ago – happy memories! 
I’ve spent the last 4 ½ years learning to drive my Griff and improving its handling. I have to say I disagree with Sam 68’s comments and agree with shpub’s.
The Griff is a very capable car but is more prone to being unsettled by bumps or whatever. This can be improved greatly with suspension mods but it never completely goes away. The thing is the car is very communicative. Initially this can make it feel a bit scary but as you get used to it and get a better understanding of what it’s telling you, you can exploit it. I would say the difference in speed around a track between a skilled driver and unskilled is perhaps more noticeable in a Griff than a great many other cars, including Lotus.
As an example I recently did back to back drives in my Griff and a Porsche 911 (993) on a track. The Porsche felt very composed and “easy”. Still needed to be taken by the scruff of the neck but it never felt like it was going to spit me off. The Griff feels so much more alive and twitchy by comparison but was also quite a bit quicker. I can see that someone without much experience would think the Griff quite dangerous compared to the Porsche but the alternative view is that it is exciting and providing you “listen” to and understand what it’s telling you, it is a more rewarding drive.
I have had more fun learning to drive the Griff and improve it’s handling than I could have ever imagined before I bought it. As shpub says we all think we’re good drivers it’s just the Griff tells you that you’re not as good as you think!
Since I’ve had mine I’ve changed the wishbone and anti-roll bar bushes for harder poly’ ones, fitted Nitron dampers, changed/uprated the springs twice, upgraded the droplinks to rose jointed ones and recently fitted track day tyres (R888). For a Griff it handles like a dream :cloudnine:
I hope this gives you some encouragement!
I’ve spent the last 4 ½ years learning to drive my Griff and improving its handling. I have to say I disagree with Sam 68’s comments and agree with shpub’s. The Griff is a very capable car but is more prone to being unsettled by bumps or whatever. This can be improved greatly with suspension mods but it never completely goes away. The thing is the car is very communicative. Initially this can make it feel a bit scary but as you get used to it and get a better understanding of what it’s telling you, you can exploit it. I would say the difference in speed around a track between a skilled driver and unskilled is perhaps more noticeable in a Griff than a great many other cars, including Lotus.
As an example I recently did back to back drives in my Griff and a Porsche 911 (993) on a track. The Porsche felt very composed and “easy”. Still needed to be taken by the scruff of the neck but it never felt like it was going to spit me off. The Griff feels so much more alive and twitchy by comparison but was also quite a bit quicker. I can see that someone without much experience would think the Griff quite dangerous compared to the Porsche but the alternative view is that it is exciting and providing you “listen” to and understand what it’s telling you, it is a more rewarding drive.
I have had more fun learning to drive the Griff and improve it’s handling than I could have ever imagined before I bought it. As shpub says we all think we’re good drivers it’s just the Griff tells you that you’re not as good as you think!
Since I’ve had mine I’ve changed the wishbone and anti-roll bar bushes for harder poly’ ones, fitted Nitron dampers, changed/uprated the springs twice, upgraded the droplinks to rose jointed ones and recently fitted track day tyres (R888). For a Griff it handles like a dream :cloudnine:
I hope this gives you some encouragement!
IMHO
The Griffs handle ok with aftermarket shocks and springs, it would appear that the original springs were soft and the Billys valved a bit on the hard side and as the shocks go off, the car gets a bit "life on the ocean wave" to the degree that I felt a bit sea sick in Hoovers car.
The Griffs handle ok with aftermarket shocks and springs, it would appear that the original springs were soft and the Billys valved a bit on the hard side and as the shocks go off, the car gets a bit "life on the ocean wave" to the degree that I felt a bit sea sick in Hoovers car.
Thanks for the replies guys. Am i right then in thinking that in the hands of someone with little experience (e.g. me) or driving skills (possibly me) the Griff would a big challenge round a track but give it to a driving god like the stig who knows how to get the most from it and it'll make good times?
With regards to the MG, I love it, I think it's a great little car and has made me certain I'll never be a Eurobox driver.
who knows how to get the most from it and it'll make good times? With regards to the MG, I love it, I think it's a great little car and has made me certain I'll never be a Eurobox driver.
MG-FIDO said:Funnily I did give mine to the Stig (MkI) at Donington. He took me round as a passenger. OK its a 500 Chim, not Griff, but the 96 models at least were pretty near identical setup wise. Needless to say the experience was enlightening. I don't recall my backside touching the seat at any point, nor the wheels touching the ground, but of course both must have. I certainly learned the benefit of a full racing harness.
Thanks for the replies guys. Am i right then in thinking that in the hands of someone with little experience (e.g. me) or driving skills (possibly me) the Griff would a big challenge round a track but give it to a driving god like the stig
With regards to the MG, I love it, I think it's a great little car and has made me certain I'll never be a Eurobox driver.
What guys like that can do with a car (which they have just got into seconds ago) is nothing short of awesome. Truly awesome. And he set my disks alight. 
I don't think they're necessarily a big challenge on a track (though to an extent any car is as much of a challenge as you choose to make it). Yes, you can do a lot to improve the handling, but the racing pedigree does show in the cars even in standard trim. Remember even experienced racers found the Tuscan racers a bit of a handful.
To give an idea, at the same Donnington track day I was lapping within 3 seconds of the times posted by touring car boys the following weekend, and I was a track virgin then (1996), and not a racer by any means. I was somewhat fired up by Mr McCarthy though!
Nitrons and the like can make the car much more stable on the Queen highway, where surfaces tend to be slightly less predictable.
As GarryM says, around a circuit it is quite a capable car; circuits are smooth. You need to drive it with a certain amount of respect, but the feedback is fine and the chassis predictable. It's on the road where everything starts going horribly wrong - particularly on the lower quality B-roads and backroads.
Apache has probably put his finger on it when he says that the car isn't communicative - it shouts! On a bumpy, twisty, cambered back road, you would have to be very brave/stupid to keep pace with a current generation hot hatch (I feel qualified to comment, here as my daily driver is a Leon Cupra!). TVR hasn't quite grasped yet that it is quality of chassis communication that counts, not quantity. Any fool can use a high-geared steering rack, plenty of castor and a decent dose of kingpin offset and end up with steering that gives a pretty good imitation of feedback without actually telling you much about the relative reserves of grip at the four tyre contact patches. The steering on my Griffith was very communicative; unfortunately, what it was mainly telling me was 'I'm confused by all these bumps and ruts and I don't quite know what I'm doing or how much grip I'm going to give you at the apex of this corner'!
Round a circuit, a Griffith in the hands of a decent driver would give a reasonable account of itself, but nothing like as good as you might expect from its power:weight ratio. Before I'm flamed by every TVR owner on the forum for that comment, I'd just suggest that you download the video clip of the Stig's lap linked to on this thread and tell me honestly if you think that an (allegedly) 340 bhp Griffith could set a time anywhere close to a certain 1.8 litre, 189bhp sports car?
I'm sorry, I don't buy into the 'better handling than the average driver' or 'separates the men from the boys' myths. I used to set up suspension as part of my living and I always took the view that 'handling' was all about ensuring that the car was predictable enough and gave the right communication to allow the driver to exploit every last ounce of grip. Don't get handling and grip confused - they are two completely different issues.
The Griffith is a great car and is certainly challenging and fun to drive. It is drop-dead gorgeous, makes a lovely noise, and accelerates like a bat out of hell, but I'm afraid I couldn't tell someone it has a fine handling chassis and keep a straight face!
I'll run away and hide in the Lotus forums for a bit, now!
Apache has probably put his finger on it when he says that the car isn't communicative - it shouts! On a bumpy, twisty, cambered back road, you would have to be very brave/stupid to keep pace with a current generation hot hatch (I feel qualified to comment, here as my daily driver is a Leon Cupra!). TVR hasn't quite grasped yet that it is quality of chassis communication that counts, not quantity. Any fool can use a high-geared steering rack, plenty of castor and a decent dose of kingpin offset and end up with steering that gives a pretty good imitation of feedback without actually telling you much about the relative reserves of grip at the four tyre contact patches. The steering on my Griffith was very communicative; unfortunately, what it was mainly telling me was 'I'm confused by all these bumps and ruts and I don't quite know what I'm doing or how much grip I'm going to give you at the apex of this corner'!
Round a circuit, a Griffith in the hands of a decent driver would give a reasonable account of itself, but nothing like as good as you might expect from its power:weight ratio. Before I'm flamed by every TVR owner on the forum for that comment, I'd just suggest that you download the video clip of the Stig's lap linked to on this thread and tell me honestly if you think that an (allegedly) 340 bhp Griffith could set a time anywhere close to a certain 1.8 litre, 189bhp sports car?
I'm sorry, I don't buy into the 'better handling than the average driver' or 'separates the men from the boys' myths. I used to set up suspension as part of my living and I always took the view that 'handling' was all about ensuring that the car was predictable enough and gave the right communication to allow the driver to exploit every last ounce of grip. Don't get handling and grip confused - they are two completely different issues.
The Griffith is a great car and is certainly challenging and fun to drive. It is drop-dead gorgeous, makes a lovely noise, and accelerates like a bat out of hell, but I'm afraid I couldn't tell someone it has a fine handling chassis and keep a straight face!
I'll run away and hide in the Lotus forums for a bit, now!
Sam_68 said:
but I'm afraid I couldn't tell someone it has a fine handling chassis and keep a straight face!
I'll run away and hide in the Lotus forums for a bit, now!
Just want to pick up on that comment,Why would the Tuscan Challenge cars use Basically the Same Chassis then?
I think aftermarket shocks/springs/bushings/tyres etc along with being setup properly will deffiantly improve the handling from bog standard of which many will be getting tired now. all IMHO though.
BB
Lets put this in none techy “I’m a suspension guru” terms.
Take an early 500 with 50K miles. It possibly has original springs and shocks which are looking past their best… (not unlike my own)
AND
On nice flat twisty B roads at legal speeds it feels good and is great fun. It’s not too hard so that your teeth fall out; you feel the body moving in response to changes in steering and throttle like you’d expect.
On bumpy B roads it will focus your attention, it will follow cambers and dips in the road and try and pull you of line. You’ll have to keep a firm hold on the wheel and pick your points to change gear because you want 2 hands on the wheel to keep it out of the hedges.
Break the speed limits on a bumpy B road and be prepared for a few brown trouser moments. Unless that is you don't fear death or repair bills as a result of near hedge experiences.
Sod that though, hold it at about 2.5K revs then boot it in 2nd or 3rd – I garentee you won’t wipe the smile of your face
Take an early 500 with 50K miles. It possibly has original springs and shocks which are looking past their best… (not unlike my own)
AND
On nice flat twisty B roads at legal speeds it feels good and is great fun. It’s not too hard so that your teeth fall out; you feel the body moving in response to changes in steering and throttle like you’d expect.
On bumpy B roads it will focus your attention, it will follow cambers and dips in the road and try and pull you of line. You’ll have to keep a firm hold on the wheel and pick your points to change gear because you want 2 hands on the wheel to keep it out of the hedges.
Break the speed limits on a bumpy B road and be prepared for a few brown trouser moments. Unless that is you don't fear death or repair bills as a result of near hedge experiences.
Sod that though, hold it at about 2.5K revs then boot it in 2nd or 3rd – I garentee you won’t wipe the smile of your face
Ballistic Banana said:
but I'm afraid I couldn't tell someone it has a fine handling chassis and keep a straight face!
Just want to pick up on that comment,Why would the Tuscan Challenge cars use Basically the Same Chassis then?
I think aftermarket shocks/springs/bushings/tyres etc along with being setup properly will deffiantly improve the handling from bog standard of which many will be getting tired now. all IMHO though.
BB
Sam_68 said:
around a circuit it is quite a capable car; circuits are smooth.
victormeldrew said:
...Remember even experienced racers found the Tuscan racers a bit of a handful.
Also, it might be worth pointing out that the only cars Tuscans have had much success in competition against are other Tuscans. Many years ago, I recall that the MG Maestro Championship used to be quite entertaining, too! Where they (Tuscan Challenge cars, that is, not MG Maestro's) are pitted against other marques (for instance Doug Elwood's car in the 750 Club RoadSports series), they haven't exactly proved dominant.
>> Edited by Sam_68 on Saturday 19th November 18:41
Sam_68 said:
As GarryM says, around a circuit it is quite a capable car; circuits are smooth. You need to drive it with a certain amount of respect, but the feedback is fine and the chassis predictable. It's on the road where everything starts going horribly wrong - particularly on the lower quality B-roads and backroads.
Apache has probably put his finger on it when he says that the car isn't communicative - it shouts! On a bumpy, twisty, cambered back road, you would have to be very brave/stupid to keep pace with a current generation hot hatch (I feel qualified to comment, here as my daily driver is a Leon Cupra!). TVR hasn't quite grasped yet that it is quality of chassis communication that counts, not quantity. Any fool can use a high-geared steering rack, plenty of castor and a decent dose of kingpin offset and end up with steering that gives a pretty good imitation of feedback without actually telling you much about the relative reserves of grip at the four tyre contact patches. The steering on my Griffith was very communicative; unfortunately, what it was mainly telling me was 'I'm confused by all these bumps and ruts and I don't quite know what I'm doing or how much grip I'm going to give you at the apex of this corner'!
Round a circuit, a Griffith in the hands of a decent driver would give a reasonable account of itself, but nothing like as good as you might expect from its power:weight ratio. Before I'm flamed by every TVR owner on the forum for that comment, I'd just suggest that you download the video clip of the Stig's lap linked to on this thread and tell me honestly if you think that an (allegedly) 340 bhp Griffith could set a time anywhere close to a certain 1.8 litre, 189bhp sports car?
I'm sorry, I don't buy into the 'better handling than the average driver' or 'separates the men from the boys' myths. I used to set up suspension as part of my living and I always took the view that 'handling' was all about ensuring that the car was predictable enough and gave the right communication to allow the driver to exploit every last ounce of grip. Don't get handling and grip confused - they are two completely different issues.
The Griffith is a great car and is certainly challenging and fun to drive. It is drop-dead gorgeous, makes a lovely noise, and accelerates like a bat out of hell, but I'm afraid I couldn't tell someone it has a fine handling chassis and keep a straight face!
I'll run away and hide in the Lotus forums for a bit, now!
spot on
see this thread for a 'few' opinions on handling and suspension upgrades.
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=194098
B
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=194098
B
Sam_68 said:
lots of interesting stuff
I think there are people that get the Lotus way of doing things and find everything else lacking. I don’t mean that to sound derogatory or even wrong, it’s just that I’ve met a couple people who have that belief. Both were phenomenal drivers and found attributes like lift off oversteer unacceptable. It didn’t matter how fast a TVR could be peddled around a track, they just didn’t like the handling.
Perhaps it’s the TVR rose tinted spectacles on my part but I love it!
There's certainly some rose tints on the spectacles of some lotus owners .. especially Elise S2 owners .. understeer city
it takes a VERY talented driver to exploit the low lap times in an elise .. I've watched many an elise driver absolutely killing their front tyres with chronic understeer issues .. they flatly refuse to modify their driving to make the car fast .. give the car what it wants to get the times, and armful of slip angle isn't it! lol.
there isn't a car built that doesn't have some form of poor handling trait, some have more than others but ultimately it's up to the driver to do something about making the car he's driving perform properly.
As has been mentioned already, a talented driver can jump in most any car and make it go quickly. If a car is capable of fast times and it isn't doing them there's only one place to point the finger ...
You can set cars up to benefit a certain driving style, but once you're out on track you've got the car you've got .. precious few have internal roll bar adjustmants and so forth. With a griff that's usually a slightly understeery chassis with power oversteer available if you're brave. With an elise it's a slightly understeery chassis with more understeer available if you abuse it, or lift off oversteer if you're brave and talented.
Often a bad handling car is bad because the inexperienced driver can't drive the car to hide the shortcomings and exploit the good points. A good driver can do this.. (the Lada Riva Top Gear project car is excused this part of the lesson .. )
If you're out on track and you have a bad handling car, change your driving to suit!
it takes a VERY talented driver to exploit the low lap times in an elise .. I've watched many an elise driver absolutely killing their front tyres with chronic understeer issues .. they flatly refuse to modify their driving to make the car fast .. give the car what it wants to get the times, and armful of slip angle isn't it! lol.
there isn't a car built that doesn't have some form of poor handling trait, some have more than others but ultimately it's up to the driver to do something about making the car he's driving perform properly.
As has been mentioned already, a talented driver can jump in most any car and make it go quickly. If a car is capable of fast times and it isn't doing them there's only one place to point the finger ...
You can set cars up to benefit a certain driving style, but once you're out on track you've got the car you've got .. precious few have internal roll bar adjustmants and so forth. With a griff that's usually a slightly understeery chassis with power oversteer available if you're brave. With an elise it's a slightly understeery chassis with more understeer available if you abuse it, or lift off oversteer if you're brave and talented.
Often a bad handling car is bad because the inexperienced driver can't drive the car to hide the shortcomings and exploit the good points. A good driver can do this.. (the Lada Riva Top Gear project car is excused this part of the lesson .. )
If you're out on track and you have a bad handling car, change your driving to suit!
I agree that the S2 Elise, in particular, suffers from chronic understeer. Gavan Kershaw, Lotus' test driver, appeared on Top Gear when the car was launched and basically said (in a very tactful way) that since the car was now selling in large numbers to hairdressers and computer geeks instead of the hardcore Lotus enthusiasts that had been the anticipated market when the launched the S1, they had had to kill the front end grip to prevent any risk of snap oversteer at the limit. You can modify the car to regain better balance, just as you can fit a set of Nitrons and springs to quell the worst of the Griffith's bad manners. The transverse mid-engine installation doesn't help, though, and the whole chassis set-up was a compromise to avoid the severe snap oversteer that the prototypes occasionally exhibited. For what it's worth for road use I'm still waiting for someone to better the benign handling balance of the original, '60's Elan, but at least the Elsie comes close for steering feel.
I say yet again, however, that I am not criticising the Griffith's handling on a race track. Neither the TVR or the Lotus is perfect in this environment (buy a Radical if you want the ultimate track day car), but they are both bloody good.
Where the Griffith falls down, at least in standard form, is on public roads. At best, an Elise, ScoobyEvo or decent hot hatch will p**s all over the Griffith on the back roads, at worst, it the Griffith will kill you. Am I the only one here who finds it just a teensy bit ironic that one of the people who is defending the Griff's handling is famous not least for spinning one off though a fence on a slow bend? Now that's what I call rose tinted bins!
Edited to add...I'm neither brave nor talented, but you really don't need to be either to exploit a little oversteer on the Elise (Series 1). They respond to a very similar technique to the traditional method of provoking oversteer in a Mini - abrupt turn-in, quick lift of the throttle to bring the tail round, then back on the power to ride out the drift. Quite a friendly little car it is, honestly!
>> Edited by Sam_68 on Saturday 19th November 22:05
I say yet again, however, that I am not criticising the Griffith's handling on a race track. Neither the TVR or the Lotus is perfect in this environment (buy a Radical if you want the ultimate track day car), but they are both bloody good.
Where the Griffith falls down, at least in standard form, is on public roads. At best, an Elise, ScoobyEvo or decent hot hatch will p**s all over the Griffith on the back roads, at worst, it the Griffith will kill you. Am I the only one here who finds it just a teensy bit ironic that one of the people who is defending the Griff's handling is famous not least for spinning one off though a fence on a slow bend? Now that's what I call rose tinted bins!
Edited to add...I'm neither brave nor talented, but you really don't need to be either to exploit a little oversteer on the Elise (Series 1). They respond to a very similar technique to the traditional method of provoking oversteer in a Mini - abrupt turn-in, quick lift of the throttle to bring the tail round, then back on the power to ride out the drift. Quite a friendly little car it is, honestly!
>> Edited by Sam_68 on Saturday 19th November 22:05
I'm no expert ........ upgraded GAZ suspension, polybushes, and Toyo tyres ..... and yes the Griff handles better then it did....... BUT it is no where near spot on handling on the twisties......
I bought my car of Stve Reid n he told me that he could get a Mazda Mx5 around the test drive roads as the Griff... Nievely I thought Noooo.....
After owning one...... I know its probably true..... even with everything added I still feel exposed.....
I love it though... sound, noise, seat of the pants driving .... no elctronic wizadry to stay on the road.... driver n machine
I bought my car of Stve Reid n he told me that he could get a Mazda Mx5 around the test drive roads as the Griff... Nievely I thought Noooo.....
After owning one...... I know its probably true..... even with everything added I still feel exposed.....
I love it though... sound, noise, seat of the pants driving
.... no elctronic wizadry to stay on the road.... driver n machine Gassing Station | Griffith | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff