Looking to get my first 911
Discussion
Hi Everyone
I'm looking to get my first 911 (have been a BMW driver for a while now). I'm not commuting to work any more and so would like a fun weekend/holiday car, and maybe even some track.
Really do want a 911, and have a budget around 15K. From looking at similar posts the wisdom seems to be to go for a late 80's 3.2 Carrera (or have I missed the point, wouldn't be the first time).
I know I'm not the first to come begging advice-but I would really appreciate any help-especially if you think I'm realistically going to get a decent car, any experiences of the many dealers around and if anyone has sucessfully done the same....?
I'm based in London, but will travel for the right opportunity!
Thanks in advance folks
Matt
I'm looking to get my first 911 (have been a BMW driver for a while now). I'm not commuting to work any more and so would like a fun weekend/holiday car, and maybe even some track.
Really do want a 911, and have a budget around 15K. From looking at similar posts the wisdom seems to be to go for a late 80's 3.2 Carrera (or have I missed the point, wouldn't be the first time).
I know I'm not the first to come begging advice-but I would really appreciate any help-especially if you think I'm realistically going to get a decent car, any experiences of the many dealers around and if anyone has sucessfully done the same....?
I'm based in London, but will travel for the right opportunity!
Thanks in advance folks
Matt
Check out the "Are there good 911s for £13k? ..." thread that's up at the moment and other threads on the subject from the search function.
Personally I think you're correct about the 3.2 but then I'm biased - I love 'em. They're quick enough, full of character, quite cheap to keep, very strong and reliable and suffer virtually no depreciation.
Personally I think you're correct about the 3.2 but then I'm biased - I love 'em. They're quick enough, full of character, quite cheap to keep, very strong and reliable and suffer virtually no depreciation.
Go to www.performance2and4.co.uk/ for good info and a great buyers guide.
Go and have a look at portiacraft (Mill Hill, London) (www.portiacraft.com). They usually have a 3.2 or something interesting in stock for the cheaper end of the market. Its where mine came from (see my profile).
There seem to be plenty to choose from at the minute. Just make sure you get an inspection done before you part with your reddies!
There seem to be plenty to choose from at the minute. Just make sure you get an inspection done before you part with your reddies!
Also consider the 964 model 911`s from 1989 onwards. A 3.2 Carrera will feel incredibly agricultural compared to your BMW, a 964 will give a more modern drive and is better balanced on the road, (and I say this as someone with both 3.2`s and 964`s for sale so I don`t have an axe to grind), they fall into your budget so give them a whirl.
Re: inspections, obviously I`m biased given we sell Porsches for a living but go and look at all the people selling cars and pick someone you feel comfortable with. Many companies have their own safety nets in place anyway. The main dealers would appear to use the RAC ? to check their cars. In our case we purposely do no in house service work to cars. We advise that all cars are serviced before they leave us at which time a third party Porsche specialist who does it for a living and has the correct facilities checks over the car and looks for faults.
Typical problems with third party inspections are:
Finding someone with the knowledge to look at your specific car.
Finding someone prepared to give firm comments rather than general, "will reguire further investigation" type comments.
Being able to physically inspect the car properly, ie how much can you do on a driveway with a torch and a voltmeter.
Translating the information given, ie does someone mention every single nick, mark and pimple on a 20 year old car, you get a 4 page list of faults and it`s only after the 9th inspection that you suddenly realise the chap is merely being microscopic to cover his arse.
Finding someone who looks at the whole forest rather than individual trees.
For me it`s easy, good and bad cars are like chalk and cheese but then I do it for a living. With older cars it becomes more subjective but spend some time looking generally. Try not to go out into the market place looking for a specific car, be lead by what`s on the market.
Henry
Re: inspections, obviously I`m biased given we sell Porsches for a living but go and look at all the people selling cars and pick someone you feel comfortable with. Many companies have their own safety nets in place anyway. The main dealers would appear to use the RAC ? to check their cars. In our case we purposely do no in house service work to cars. We advise that all cars are serviced before they leave us at which time a third party Porsche specialist who does it for a living and has the correct facilities checks over the car and looks for faults.
Typical problems with third party inspections are:
Finding someone with the knowledge to look at your specific car.
Finding someone prepared to give firm comments rather than general, "will reguire further investigation" type comments.
Being able to physically inspect the car properly, ie how much can you do on a driveway with a torch and a voltmeter.
Translating the information given, ie does someone mention every single nick, mark and pimple on a 20 year old car, you get a 4 page list of faults and it`s only after the 9th inspection that you suddenly realise the chap is merely being microscopic to cover his arse.
Finding someone who looks at the whole forest rather than individual trees.
For me it`s easy, good and bad cars are like chalk and cheese but then I do it for a living. With older cars it becomes more subjective but spend some time looking generally. Try not to go out into the market place looking for a specific car, be lead by what`s on the market.
Henry
Only thing to consider with the 964's is the running costs will be more than a 3.2, they are a much more complicated car (some say too complicated 
) things to consider are the dual mass flywheel etc, im sure someone with more knowlege ie an owner will be along soon to tell you more!!
Mike
) things to consider are the dual mass flywheel etc, im sure someone with more knowlege ie an owner will be along soon to tell you more!! Mike
Go for it !! I bought a 3.2 Targa from Henry back in July - he's right it is a bit "agricultural" but I love it as you feel so connected with the car. I went from various modern stuff - BMWs, Fords - and now have a Nissan company car so the 911 is now a weekend toy. I bought it originally as a daily hack and it has covered 6k miles in the first 4 months without missing a beat.
Personally I like the Targa as it gives you a good compromise between the coupe and cabrio - especially if you need to use the back seats.
Enjoy !!
Personally I like the Targa as it gives you a good compromise between the coupe and cabrio - especially if you need to use the back seats.
Enjoy !!
ok, so how "agricultural" is agricultural.
I'm coming from a Ferrari 348, which are supposed to be pretty raw compared with the newer 355. I like to be in touch with the car, but i don't want this to mean a shabby interior! If that makes sense.
I'm beginning to get the distinct impression from both this and my £12-15k thread, that the 3.2 is a far safer bet than the 964, especially if I will need to be able to sell it in 6 or 12 months.
It's a shame really as the 964 is the faster car with a much more refined interior
I'm coming from a Ferrari 348, which are supposed to be pretty raw compared with the newer 355. I like to be in touch with the car, but i don't want this to mean a shabby interior! If that makes sense.
I'm beginning to get the distinct impression from both this and my £12-15k thread, that the 3.2 is a far safer bet than the 964, especially if I will need to be able to sell it in 6 or 12 months.
It's a shame really as the 964 is the faster car with a much more refined interior
burriana said:
ok, so how "agricultural" is agricultural.
I'm coming from a Ferrari 348, which are supposed to be pretty raw compared with the newer 355. I like to be in touch with the car, but i don't want this to mean a shabby interior! If that makes sense.
I'm beginning to get the distinct impression from both this and my £12-15k thread, that the 3.2 is a far safer bet than the 964, especially if I will need to be able to sell it in 6 or 12 months.
It's a shame really as the 964 is the faster car with a much more refined interior
I dont think theres a lot more interior refinement between the 3.2 and 964 - but you certainly feel in touch with the car/road in a 3.2. It makes driving most other 'normal' cars really dull
The 964s that I've seen have very similar interiors to the 3.2 so I wouldn't let that sway you.
The 964 is quicker but the 3.2 feels more connected - the driving experience will really come down to personal preference.
As for agricultura, I wouldn't recommend a 3.2 or a 964 to anyone who likes thinks a big Jag or Beemer is is a great drive. These cars, and especially the 3.2, are quite raw and you definitely know that gorgeous flat six is behind you - but that's the charm. You should just go and drive one and then you'll know whether you like it or not - I bet you do, it's utterly addictive.
I've just spent 2 weeks driving my dad's 500 SL around for him - just to give it a run. Now that's a nice car and bloody quick but getting back in the 3.2 was like getting back to your sexy missus after 2 weeks away on business.
The 964 is quicker but the 3.2 feels more connected - the driving experience will really come down to personal preference.
As for agricultura, I wouldn't recommend a 3.2 or a 964 to anyone who likes thinks a big Jag or Beemer is is a great drive. These cars, and especially the 3.2, are quite raw and you definitely know that gorgeous flat six is behind you - but that's the charm. You should just go and drive one and then you'll know whether you like it or not - I bet you do, it's utterly addictive.
I've just spent 2 weeks driving my dad's 500 SL around for him - just to give it a run. Now that's a nice car and bloody quick but getting back in the 3.2 was like getting back to your sexy missus after 2 weeks away on business.
Much more refined interior?? Not that much of an improvement!
Raised centre tunnel and centre console I guess are improvements, but the bigger central air vent etc were on the later 3.2's. I guess the very late 964's had some of the improvements shown on the 993's. IMHO I would much prefer a well looked after late 3.2 than an early 964, unless of course its an RS but thats a different matter!
If its a targa your after you need to check all the seals etc because they run into £100's if not over 1k if they all need replacing. (used to work at southbound!)
Raised centre tunnel and centre console I guess are improvements, but the bigger central air vent etc were on the later 3.2's. I guess the very late 964's had some of the improvements shown on the 993's. IMHO I would much prefer a well looked after late 3.2 than an early 964, unless of course its an RS but thats a different matter!
If its a targa your after you need to check all the seals etc because they run into £100's if not over 1k if they all need replacing. (used to work at southbound!)
IMHO I would much prefer a well looked after late 3.2 than an early 964, unless of course its an RS but thats a different matter!
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Its a different matter alright! But the RS 964 is not necessarily a better car thamn a C2, as some people make out. The RS is stripped out - read less comfortable, is MUCH harder sprung - read less comfortable, makes some nicer noises due to lack of sound proofing, but is NOT a nicer car to own and drive on UK roads. Its engine is not significantly more powerful than a C2 and the bits that really cost Porsche the extra in manufacture (like body seam welding) are not really ging to be that apparent to the average owner. My current 964 has Bilstein sports suspension, a Cup pipe and a modified airbox and its ebvery bit as fast as an RS, better on the road and a site more comfy! (read useable..)
As for the current wave of 3.2's are better than 964's talk - I suggest you drive 1 of each, 3.2's feel old compared to 964's which feel old ompared to 993's which feel old compared to 996's. Personally I find that the more modern the car is the more you will be happy driving it everyday/longer distances.
Also dont confuse 964 C2's with C4's which obviously have much more mechanicals which add weight and are more to go wrong, they also understeer much more and the steering is dead in comaprison to a C2. All this for the dubious 'advantage' of a bit more wet weather traction (not grip please note - the grip level is the same)
In my opinion a 964 C2 is the best compromise between usability, driving pleasure and cost in the marque, you can buy between £15K and £22K for good ones and the ownership costs are not high if the car has been properly looked aftre. mileage is not as much of an issue as proper servicing and lack of abuse. Sure, the over-documented early cars gasket leaks and flywheel problems were just that - but surely they must all have been fixed by now so its a non -issue. I would advise you to look for a car with a traceable history to try to work out what kind of a life the car has had and determine if the car has been abused or not.
I was out for a stroll on sunday and a guy was just strting his car up as I walked by, it stuttered a bit as he tried to start it, so he tried again - on the 3rd try the engine caught, so he revved the nuts off it for a good 60 secs!!! :-0 it made me wince I can tell you - now thats's abuse!!!
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Its a different matter alright! But the RS 964 is not necessarily a better car thamn a C2, as some people make out. The RS is stripped out - read less comfortable, is MUCH harder sprung - read less comfortable, makes some nicer noises due to lack of sound proofing, but is NOT a nicer car to own and drive on UK roads. Its engine is not significantly more powerful than a C2 and the bits that really cost Porsche the extra in manufacture (like body seam welding) are not really ging to be that apparent to the average owner. My current 964 has Bilstein sports suspension, a Cup pipe and a modified airbox and its ebvery bit as fast as an RS, better on the road and a site more comfy! (read useable..)
As for the current wave of 3.2's are better than 964's talk - I suggest you drive 1 of each, 3.2's feel old compared to 964's which feel old ompared to 993's which feel old compared to 996's. Personally I find that the more modern the car is the more you will be happy driving it everyday/longer distances.
Also dont confuse 964 C2's with C4's which obviously have much more mechanicals which add weight and are more to go wrong, they also understeer much more and the steering is dead in comaprison to a C2. All this for the dubious 'advantage' of a bit more wet weather traction (not grip please note - the grip level is the same)
In my opinion a 964 C2 is the best compromise between usability, driving pleasure and cost in the marque, you can buy between £15K and £22K for good ones and the ownership costs are not high if the car has been properly looked aftre. mileage is not as much of an issue as proper servicing and lack of abuse. Sure, the over-documented early cars gasket leaks and flywheel problems were just that - but surely they must all have been fixed by now so its a non -issue. I would advise you to look for a car with a traceable history to try to work out what kind of a life the car has had and determine if the car has been abused or not.
I was out for a stroll on sunday and a guy was just strting his car up as I walked by, it stuttered a bit as he tried to start it, so he tried again - on the 3rd try the engine caught, so he revved the nuts off it for a good 60 secs!!! :-0 it made me wince I can tell you - now thats's abuse!!!
When I first bought a 911 I was torn between a 964 and a 3.2 and asked loads of questions and got loads of advice and finally settled on the 3.2 for it's direct links with the original car and also the fact that it was a safer bet financially.
Along the way I read this article from 911 & PW www.porsche964.co.uk/rev_rep/911pw.htm in an attempt to convince me about the 964. It did the exact opposite. It's a very fair analysis and brings the 3.2 into the equation but I feel that, reading between the lines, it gives little reason to choose the 964 over the 3.2 and a few reasons not to.
Along the way I read this article from 911 & PW www.porsche964.co.uk/rev_rep/911pw.htm in an attempt to convince me about the 964. It did the exact opposite. It's a very fair analysis and brings the 3.2 into the equation but I feel that, reading between the lines, it gives little reason to choose the 964 over the 3.2 and a few reasons not to.
slider2 said:
My current 964 has Bilstein sports suspension, a Cup pipe and a modified airbox and its ebvery bit as fast as an RS, better on the road and a site more comfy! (read useable..)
It won't be 'every bit as fast' as an RS on the track, or on an A-road... A 964RS is a special car; more than the sum of its parts. Most engines are doing circa 280bhp out of the factory without any tweaks; the 260bhp quoted was an understatement. As Tony.t has proved, you can get close by modifying a C2, but there's something special about the RSs... the feedback through the unassisted steering (kickback on bumpy roads!), the razor sharp turn-in, the sheer lack of roll, the fact you're in a limited edition lightweight Porsche with magnesium wheels and no interior light to shave off a few grammes. I'm not denying that a modded C2 is effective and good value in comparison, but if you don't appreciate how good they are then you've obviously never driven one for a meaningful length of time. The whole ride issue is a bit of an urban myth these days... you'd think it had no suspension according to some. I used to commute 70miles a day in mine and yes, it can be bumpy, but the ride was no harsher than my old Caterham. We have been a bit spoilt by the ride/handling compromise of stuff like Mitsubishi Evos... the Evo 9 FQ I drove at the weekend had little roll and a brilliant ride.
slider2 said:
As for the current wave of 3.2's are better than 964's talk - I suggest you drive 1 of each, 3.2's feel old compared to 964's which feel old ompared to 993's which feel old compared to 996's.
This is true. I'm selling my 964 so no particular allegiance to 964vs993vs3.2vsWhatever, but a 964 can have tons if feedback with the right suspension and don't necessarily cost a fortune to run; another urban myth based on the dual mass flywheel of the earliest cars. The dogs will still bite, but a well-maintained one won't - and it does feel more modern than a 3.2. I have known 924s and 968s cost far more to run in a year - and yes, even a 3.2... Buy the car you want and get the best example you can find.
Dom, you typed almost word for word what I did - I chose not to bother posting it though, as Slider talks a lot of sense in his answer too and I didn't want to make it appear that I was dissing him!
I'm guessing he hasn't driven C2 and RS back to back like you and I have either. It is fair to say that the RS is a nightmare with standard suspension over a bumpy road though
I'm guessing he hasn't driven C2 and RS back to back like you and I have either. It is fair to say that the RS is a nightmare with standard suspension over a bumpy road though
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