Why do people say JC is a "bad driver" (or worse)?
Discussion
Hi all - another wet and miserable Sunday, so thought I'd start a thread whilst we wait for 8pm.
Thought I would post this here because (i) a lot of debate of JC due to recent Porsche reviews (or more accurately, well telegraphed jibes at his colleagues' new acquisitions that were deliberately OTT and seemed to have provoked the "outraged" reaction he must enjoy - people seem to forget the postive reviews he has given to the driving purity of the GT3, GT3 RS and 997S), and (ii) the majority of "posters" seem to have considerable track-driving experience, and so are eminently qualified to answer my query.
N.B. It is the feelings of inadequacy prompted by the latter that have caused me to be a "reader" rather than a "poster" in the past - I'd feel like a schoolboy piping up at the university lecturers' strategy meeting.
In the same way as my understanding of race-driving technique was considerably developed when Martin Brundle started to offer his informed commentary on F1 qualifying all those years ago, I am seeking similar pointers from yourselves so that I can learn as I watch future JC proving ground reviews of powerful sports and saloon cars.
When many of you say JC is a "bad driver", what is it that he is doing that prompts such an apparently universally held view? It cannot be the attitudes and skills relevant to road driving (smoothness, anticipation and planning?) nor more importantly race driving (as this is patently not what he is trying to demonstrate - progressive, smooth, mimimum slip-angle, on-limit driving would not make good TV for the majority of the programme's viewers), so I have assumed it is a reference to the way he provokes and sustains a power-oversteer attitude to a car.
To my very inexpert eye, I can discern that JC's applications of opposite lock are less-measured and apparently "behind the slide" rather than "on top of it" compared to say Messrs Needell and Roser (Mr RUF) - but being called "bad" because you are less accomplished than a genuine "hand" (as Autocar would call them) seems a bit harsh. Are all professional cyclists who are unable to match Lance Armstrong's tempo up an Alpine climb bad riders ? The pretty much universal dismissal of JC's driving abilities suggests that he is falling far short of competent - so what should I be looking for?
I can see that pointless "burn-outs" after an un-caught slide are offensive to accomplished drivers - but I interpret these in the same way as the provocative studio comments - sops to the majority audience. Plus, how many non-professional drivers can consistently provoke and hold a high speed, throttle-maintained oversteer attitude (as opposed to a throttle-lift twitch) without suffering the occasional spin? Once again - hardly grounds for being called a bad driver when the aim is to produce entertaining footage.
Are these comments a development of what was more graphically demonstrated in an earlier programme when JC was driving an Elise? In that case JC's driving was effectively compared to Gavin Kershaw's (uber-hand) - and seemed to demonstrate that JC's approach to managing the weight-transfer of a car was not sufficiently subtle, resulting in excessive front-end slip that prevented him from achieving a manageable rear-end breakaway. Once again though, anyone who has tried to drift an Elise (as opposed to a simple, low-speed lift-off twitch) or driven with a Lotus Ride and Handling professional will know that we are talking serious car control not often seen outside of professional "limit" drivers.
Apologies for the rambling - just looking to increase my enjoyment (and learn something at the same time) as I watch JC, Needell, Plato and VBH push yet another desirable car around a track or proving ground.
P.S. Before I am publically humiliated, yes I know I am fortunate to own a car many of you trackday enthusiats will say properly belongs on a track (until recently it was worse - I had a 964 RS as well). However, the combination of limited skill, inadequate commitment to corner entry speed, and imagined-intimidation by drivers who to me seemed confused by the difference between trackday driving and racing, have conspired to keep my enjoyment of the car to developing my on-road skills. So yes, I know I am an unworthy wimp already thanks.
Thought I would post this here because (i) a lot of debate of JC due to recent Porsche reviews (or more accurately, well telegraphed jibes at his colleagues' new acquisitions that were deliberately OTT and seemed to have provoked the "outraged" reaction he must enjoy - people seem to forget the postive reviews he has given to the driving purity of the GT3, GT3 RS and 997S), and (ii) the majority of "posters" seem to have considerable track-driving experience, and so are eminently qualified to answer my query.
N.B. It is the feelings of inadequacy prompted by the latter that have caused me to be a "reader" rather than a "poster" in the past - I'd feel like a schoolboy piping up at the university lecturers' strategy meeting.
In the same way as my understanding of race-driving technique was considerably developed when Martin Brundle started to offer his informed commentary on F1 qualifying all those years ago, I am seeking similar pointers from yourselves so that I can learn as I watch future JC proving ground reviews of powerful sports and saloon cars.
When many of you say JC is a "bad driver", what is it that he is doing that prompts such an apparently universally held view? It cannot be the attitudes and skills relevant to road driving (smoothness, anticipation and planning?) nor more importantly race driving (as this is patently not what he is trying to demonstrate - progressive, smooth, mimimum slip-angle, on-limit driving would not make good TV for the majority of the programme's viewers), so I have assumed it is a reference to the way he provokes and sustains a power-oversteer attitude to a car.
To my very inexpert eye, I can discern that JC's applications of opposite lock are less-measured and apparently "behind the slide" rather than "on top of it" compared to say Messrs Needell and Roser (Mr RUF) - but being called "bad" because you are less accomplished than a genuine "hand" (as Autocar would call them) seems a bit harsh. Are all professional cyclists who are unable to match Lance Armstrong's tempo up an Alpine climb bad riders ? The pretty much universal dismissal of JC's driving abilities suggests that he is falling far short of competent - so what should I be looking for?
I can see that pointless "burn-outs" after an un-caught slide are offensive to accomplished drivers - but I interpret these in the same way as the provocative studio comments - sops to the majority audience. Plus, how many non-professional drivers can consistently provoke and hold a high speed, throttle-maintained oversteer attitude (as opposed to a throttle-lift twitch) without suffering the occasional spin? Once again - hardly grounds for being called a bad driver when the aim is to produce entertaining footage.
Are these comments a development of what was more graphically demonstrated in an earlier programme when JC was driving an Elise? In that case JC's driving was effectively compared to Gavin Kershaw's (uber-hand) - and seemed to demonstrate that JC's approach to managing the weight-transfer of a car was not sufficiently subtle, resulting in excessive front-end slip that prevented him from achieving a manageable rear-end breakaway. Once again though, anyone who has tried to drift an Elise (as opposed to a simple, low-speed lift-off twitch) or driven with a Lotus Ride and Handling professional will know that we are talking serious car control not often seen outside of professional "limit" drivers.
Apologies for the rambling - just looking to increase my enjoyment (and learn something at the same time) as I watch JC, Needell, Plato and VBH push yet another desirable car around a track or proving ground.
P.S. Before I am publically humiliated, yes I know I am fortunate to own a car many of you trackday enthusiats will say properly belongs on a track (until recently it was worse - I had a 964 RS as well). However, the combination of limited skill, inadequate commitment to corner entry speed, and imagined-intimidation by drivers who to me seemed confused by the difference between trackday driving and racing, have conspired to keep my enjoyment of the car to developing my on-road skills. So yes, I know I am an unworthy wimp already thanks.
colin993rs said:
Plus, how many non-professional drivers can consistently provoke and hold a high speed, throttle-maintained oversteer attitude (as opposed to a throttle-lift twitch) without suffering the occasional spin? Once again - hardly grounds for being called a bad driver when the aim is to produce entertaining footage.
...all I can really add is that he has had the benefit of circuit knowledge and virtually unlimted practice in order to perfect his technique...and I am sure he doesn't care a stuff whether anyone cares whether he's a good driver or not!
Thanks for the replies so far - but I was more concerned about what the give-aways were to JC being considered bad at drifting a car than whether he is concerned about the label.
I should also seek to preserve the integrity of my dental arrangments at future visits to our shared spanner-wielding deity, by clarifying that all references to JC are to the freakishly tall, extravagantly tousled and wealthy TV presenter of those initials, rather than the 993 GT2 owning driftmeister of more than adequate stature, slip-streaming efficient but equally wealthy PHer of the same initials. Hope that's clear.
I should also seek to preserve the integrity of my dental arrangments at future visits to our shared spanner-wielding deity, by clarifying that all references to JC are to the freakishly tall, extravagantly tousled and wealthy TV presenter of those initials, rather than the 993 GT2 owning driftmeister of more than adequate stature, slip-streaming efficient but equally wealthy PHer of the same initials. Hope that's clear.
Colin, let me try and add some insight. I spent plently of time with JC before he was famous (back in the 80's) when he used to work on Performance Car magazine. Lots of days were whiled away at Millbrook, Bruntingthorphe and the like, and as you'd expect in a car magazine the journos have a hierarchy of those who are considered competent (a 'hand' as you say) and those who are not. Jeremy has always been a very funny guy, sit with him and a cup of coffee in the canteen at Millbrook and he will have you in stitches. But he was known by his fellow journos as being a driving baffoon. He will admit as much. Where John Barker or Richard Meaden had exquisite car control, Jeremy was the wordsmith. More often than not he'd completely loose control of a car and whilst he loved driving, he wasn't naturally talented.
So Jeremy was basically someone not very talented at driving, who liked to play the baffoon, and you can therefore imagine how the locker room jokes of him being a crap driver became his reputation. Having said that, I've seen his driving now and it is leagues ahead of what he used to be capable of, he's clearly spent a great deal of time refining his abilities and is no longer the driving baffoon he once was. But being Jeremy, he doesn't like anyone to take him too seriously and still likes to pretend to be worse than he is.
Jeremy is basically the kid at school with the glasses and silly hair that everybody laughed at, but he used the one talent he had (i.e. being a wordsmith) to become more succesful than the lot of them. Seeing him powersliding a car on TG is his way of telling his fellow journos that he's not as crap as they used to think he was and he's having the last laugh.
So Jeremy was basically someone not very talented at driving, who liked to play the baffoon, and you can therefore imagine how the locker room jokes of him being a crap driver became his reputation. Having said that, I've seen his driving now and it is leagues ahead of what he used to be capable of, he's clearly spent a great deal of time refining his abilities and is no longer the driving baffoon he once was. But being Jeremy, he doesn't like anyone to take him too seriously and still likes to pretend to be worse than he is.
Jeremy is basically the kid at school with the glasses and silly hair that everybody laughed at, but he used the one talent he had (i.e. being a wordsmith) to become more succesful than the lot of them. Seeing him powersliding a car on TG is his way of telling his fellow journos that he's not as crap as they used to think he was and he's having the last laugh.
Dr D - very insightful (thanks), and accurately reflects my thinking on the matter i.e. JC is much more talented since the new-style TG came back to our screens. I can remember him writing in a PC Advanced Driving supplement something to the effect that if you cannot control a 100mph slide, do not even think of yourself as a driver. As he could not do this, JC went on to make his usual self-depricating and amusing observations on this that and the other. Having spent previous weekends at Bruntingthorpe with one Paul Ripley, I can remember thinking "Well I certainly have recovered from just such a situation, so I must be a "better" driver than JC" (the arrogance of youth!).
We now see JC regularly not only recovering from, but actively inducing and controlling with a reasonable degree of aplomb such antics - so his skill levels have apparently moved on in leagues, but well-informed observers (i.e. committed trackday PHers) still label him as a bad driver.
So what I am trying to establish (so that I can keep a Brundle-trained eye on future editions so that I can spot where a good driver would do things differently) is what causes this consistent and current criticism? Or is there a silent minority out there, who like me think "wish I could drive like that"?
We now see JC regularly not only recovering from, but actively inducing and controlling with a reasonable degree of aplomb such antics - so his skill levels have apparently moved on in leagues, but well-informed observers (i.e. committed trackday PHers) still label him as a bad driver.
So what I am trying to establish (so that I can keep a Brundle-trained eye on future editions so that I can spot where a good driver would do things differently) is what causes this consistent and current criticism? Or is there a silent minority out there, who like me think "wish I could drive like that"?
It's just a persistent rumour that JC himself has perpetrated. He's not crap, he's better than the average driver, but not good enough compared to the better Journos. As someone else has mentioned, having a airfield to play on provides ample opportunity to develop these skills. Most journos have the luxury of a track or piece of tarmac all to themselves, so they learn these skills more readily than you or I.
About 12 years ago I remember letting John Barker drive my car (a new E36 328i) because he hadn't had the chance to drive one yet. He got in the car and began sliding it through the corners on the B660 (the road we both live nearby). I was amazed (until he made a wee mistake and we ended up in a shallow ditch!), because around a track I knew we were pretty evenly matched. But John explained that he slides cars all the time and therefore has good feel for it. Now I would argue over who was necessarily the better driver, but it had nothing to do with who could slide the car furthest. Sliding cars is the very antithesis to the fast driver, so most race drivers don't learn how to do it. So just as JC has learned to slide a car around the TG test track, that doesn't necessarily make him a quick track driver. In fact I would be prepared to bet he'd still be all fingers and thumbs if he had to lap a car at 10/10ths around a track.
About 12 years ago I remember letting John Barker drive my car (a new E36 328i) because he hadn't had the chance to drive one yet. He got in the car and began sliding it through the corners on the B660 (the road we both live nearby). I was amazed (until he made a wee mistake and we ended up in a shallow ditch!), because around a track I knew we were pretty evenly matched. But John explained that he slides cars all the time and therefore has good feel for it. Now I would argue over who was necessarily the better driver, but it had nothing to do with who could slide the car furthest. Sliding cars is the very antithesis to the fast driver, so most race drivers don't learn how to do it. So just as JC has learned to slide a car around the TG test track, that doesn't necessarily make him a quick track driver. In fact I would be prepared to bet he'd still be all fingers and thumbs if he had to lap a car at 10/10ths around a track.
Dr D - once again, agree entirely (and I envy you experiencing JB's driving - one of the few journo's who I believe when I read about provoking a car on the public road, most are fantasist musings I think).
However, as JC is not trying to demonstrate the art of race driving (which the PH minority would enjoy, but the BBC2 majority would not - as it is by design, as you correctly observe, outwardly un-spectacular), I find it hard to believe that trackday enthusiasts (who would clearly appreciate the distinction much better than I) would pretty much universally criticise a driving-style that is not being displayed.
Surely the criticism is based on the actual rather than the interpolated evidence, and so they are seeing something I am hoping they will share should I venture out onto a deserted proving ground (you can hit things on a track).
However, as JC is not trying to demonstrate the art of race driving (which the PH minority would enjoy, but the BBC2 majority would not - as it is by design, as you correctly observe, outwardly un-spectacular), I find it hard to believe that trackday enthusiasts (who would clearly appreciate the distinction much better than I) would pretty much universally criticise a driving-style that is not being displayed.
Surely the criticism is based on the actual rather than the interpolated evidence, and so they are seeing something I am hoping they will share should I venture out onto a deserted proving ground (you can hit things on a track).
rubystone said:
Plus, how many non-professional drivers can consistently provoke and hold a high speed, throttle-maintained oversteer attitude (as opposed to a throttle-lift twitch) without suffering the occasional spin? Once again - hardly grounds for being called a bad driver when the aim is to produce entertaining footage.
...all I can really add is that he has had the benefit of circuit knowledge and virtually unlimted practice in order to perfect his technique...and I am sure he doesn't care a stuff whether anyone cares whether he's a good driver or not!
In my opinion, being a TV presenter amongst other things probably entails doing alot of other things other than driving around practicing on a track all day.
I would hazard a guess that he has less time to do that sort fo thing than many people on this forum.
I'm suring he is far too busy with other buisness interests.
That's my guess anyway.
Well I'm an experienced track day driver and I see nothing inherently wrong with JC's driving, so most of the criticism you read about is either of the jockular good-humoured variety or from the uninformed who perhaps don't understand JC's sense of humour, or just like to take pot-shots at someone who is an easy target.
My theory for what it's worth. If you meet Jeremy you will note that he's tall and awkward in his movements, he's not the athletic type nor particularly well balanced and this tends to come across in his driving. Driving well is all about controlling the balance of a car, being able to brake late, carry speed through fast corners and be on the right line is all about having good feel and balance and then using this to optimise the contact patch of the tyres. JC isn't as blessed as some in this respect so has to work harder than many. But he's been working at it and is probably now better than most.
p.s. this conversation has brought back memories of the heady days of Performance Car magazine. It's amazing when looking across the UK car mags how prevalent and succesful the old PC'ers have become. In those cold and miserable days at Millbrook there was John Barker and Richard Meaden (now big wigs at EVO), Jeremy Clarkson (the only millionaire journo), Jason Barlow (who now heads CAR) and Mark Walton (also of CAR). Then I seem to remember a certain Roger Green always being asked to go and get more coffee..
My theory for what it's worth. If you meet Jeremy you will note that he's tall and awkward in his movements, he's not the athletic type nor particularly well balanced and this tends to come across in his driving. Driving well is all about controlling the balance of a car, being able to brake late, carry speed through fast corners and be on the right line is all about having good feel and balance and then using this to optimise the contact patch of the tyres. JC isn't as blessed as some in this respect so has to work harder than many. But he's been working at it and is probably now better than most.
p.s. this conversation has brought back memories of the heady days of Performance Car magazine. It's amazing when looking across the UK car mags how prevalent and succesful the old PC'ers have become. In those cold and miserable days at Millbrook there was John Barker and Richard Meaden (now big wigs at EVO), Jeremy Clarkson (the only millionaire journo), Jason Barlow (who now heads CAR) and Mark Walton (also of CAR). Then I seem to remember a certain Roger Green always being asked to go and get more coffee..
The problem for me with Clarkson's driving is that he pontificates about incredibly fine differences in handling and balance, yet from what I can see of his driving on tv, he doesn't have the skill to really make those distinctions.
His driving does appear to have improved, but even now there are plenty of cuts just as he loses control of the car in a drift. You must remember his trademark 'oops I've lost it and there is tyre smoke everywhere, I'll drive through it flashing my headlights'. You don't get that as much now
Whether thats vanity leading to the director cutting earlier or an improvement, I can't be entirely sure. Then again, neither the hamster or wotshisname look much better behind the wheel! The hamster obviously takes himself seriously though as he got all upset when he was hypnotised to be unable to drive.
As said above, he's probably better than a lot of people, but for someone who's so emersed in the industry, its a pretty poor show!
pm99 said:
In my opinion, being a TV presenter amongst other things probably entails doing alot of other things other than driving around practicing on a track all day.
I would hazard a guess that he has less time to do that sort fo thing than many people on this forum.
I'm suring he is far too busy with other buisness interests.
That's my guess anyway.
I suspect you've never been to a TV filming session or magazine photo shoot
There's precious little else to do but hoon around practicing on track. Firstly it keeps you warm, because most of these glamourous filming sessions involve 90% just standing around freezing your nuts off and secondly, what would you do if you had someone else's car at your disposal all day and track to play on? 
>> Edited by DoctorD on Sunday 27th November 14:15
I think JC is just too over confident. When he drove the Jag S type round the ring with Sabine, he was so overconfident and fast, in other words dangerous.
Sabine quite aptly told him that he was a bad driver
"Your not 100% talentless, more like 80%"
Anyone can learn to hold a powerslide on a big airfield...
all the best
adam
Sabine quite aptly told him that he was a bad driver
"Your not 100% talentless, more like 80%"
Anyone can learn to hold a powerslide on a big airfield...
all the best
adam
adamt said:
I think JC is just too over confident. When he drove the Jag S type round the ring with Sabine, he was so overconfident and fast, in other words dangerous.
Or maybe overconfident and slow?
By coincidence I was there that day and came upon him as he was starting down Hatzenbach. Out of curiosity I thought that I would follow him. Apart from the fact that his line had more squiggles than a two-year-old's crayon drawing, you would not believe how slow he was - and this particular section is completely sighted. After about fifteen seconds I had to overtake him, simply because I (and any other half-experienced driver) could not maintain a slow enough pace to stay behind him.
With respect to his excuse on that episode that he was slow at the 'ring because he had never been there before, a friend of mine took the Scuderia Hanseat Nordschleife driving course in 1984. On that occasion, amongst the few other English-speaking students was one J. Clarkson.
His driving has improved, i was quite surpirsed to see him holding any sort of drift so he has done the practice bit. Good for him.
Tiff and Jason compete regularly and have done for many years, has JC ever owned a competition licence ? also VBH i know she does compete but does not show in her track driving....
maybe we should all write in and get them to do a lap in a GT3RS around Donny - to see whose the best... my monies on Jason plato..
>> Edited by porsche4life on Sunday 27th November 17:38
Tiff and Jason compete regularly and have done for many years, has JC ever owned a competition licence ? also VBH i know she does compete but does not show in her track driving....
maybe we should all write in and get them to do a lap in a GT3RS around Donny - to see whose the best... my monies on Jason plato..
>> Edited by porsche4life on Sunday 27th November 17:38
adamt said:
I think JC is just too over confident. When he drove the Jag S type round the ring with Sabine, he was so overconfident and fast, in other words dangerous.
Sabine quite aptly told him that he was a bad driver
"Your not 100% talentless, more like 80%"
Anyone can learn to hold a powerslide on a big airfield...
all the best
adam
Funny how different people draw different conclusions from the same thing. When I watched the 'ring bit, my impression of JC was that he was rather overawed by the place, he had the deepest respect for the place and for those who patronise the place, he knew he had a job on his hands to get the Jag round in 10 mins, and he applied himself and did his very best to do so, in the knowledge that he knows he himself isn't the best driver in the world.
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