Ethics in business/life (longish post)
Discussion
Over in the computer games forum, there comments made voicing anger at people out to make a profit.
The new Xbox console is launched this week, a worldwide release. Stocks are very limited! In some cases less than 1 out of 5 people who preordered will be getting a unit on launch day. Many wont have one in time for christmas. Sad but true, for games lovers
The question is - being fair, how would you regard someone who pre-ordered a few units, knowing demand would be high, knowing fully they could make £100 or more per unit flogging them on ebay?
I dont have kids, and Ive only ordered one machine for myself, but if I did have kids and:
1) They made a profit buying/selling. Good on them.
2) They couldnt get an xbox, due to a shortage of stocks. Fine. Another learning experience. Order earlier next time. Or pay the price if you want an over priced system off ebay. You cant judge life, or others. Only yourself and your own actions, in my opinion.
Why is making money or a profit seen as bad rather than industrious, when the playing field is even, everyone has the same opportunity, and certain people choose to act whilst others do not. If kids these days can make £100 quid in an afternoon before they are teenagers, well done. Its more than I made as a child.
Are you the kind of person who grumps about CocaCola, when a penny's worth of mixer buys a drink sold on in pubs for pounds, or there's too much ice in the glass? Or do you admire coke (or any success in life) for creating a lucrative products, and enjoy your ice because it compliments the drink.
Far too deep for a tuesday afternoon I know
edited for speeeling
>> Edited by UKBob on Tuesday 29th November 16:19
The new Xbox console is launched this week, a worldwide release. Stocks are very limited! In some cases less than 1 out of 5 people who preordered will be getting a unit on launch day. Many wont have one in time for christmas. Sad but true, for games lovers
The question is - being fair, how would you regard someone who pre-ordered a few units, knowing demand would be high, knowing fully they could make £100 or more per unit flogging them on ebay?
I dont have kids, and Ive only ordered one machine for myself, but if I did have kids and:
1) They made a profit buying/selling. Good on them.
2) They couldnt get an xbox, due to a shortage of stocks. Fine. Another learning experience. Order earlier next time. Or pay the price if you want an over priced system off ebay. You cant judge life, or others. Only yourself and your own actions, in my opinion.
Why is making money or a profit seen as bad rather than industrious, when the playing field is even, everyone has the same opportunity, and certain people choose to act whilst others do not. If kids these days can make £100 quid in an afternoon before they are teenagers, well done. Its more than I made as a child.
Are you the kind of person who grumps about CocaCola, when a penny's worth of mixer buys a drink sold on in pubs for pounds, or there's too much ice in the glass? Or do you admire coke (or any success in life) for creating a lucrative products, and enjoy your ice because it compliments the drink.
Far too deep for a tuesday afternoon I know
edited for speeeling
>> Edited by UKBob on Tuesday 29th November 16:19
Hmm well for starters you need to be clear on the subtle or not so subtle difference between those who develop and make a product that meets a demand ( but involves risks such as the demand not being there ) such as coke, or pure speculators who certainly in this case actually do not seem to be providing any kind of service, infact they seem intent of creating a market shortage from which they will profit by short term price rises of Xboxes.
I reckon it depends which foot the boot is on (so to speak).
I very much suspect that the people moaning are the ones who wanted one and didn't pre-order in time. Case of sour grapes. If they had two would they sell it at cost to someone less fortunate or would they cash in and make a tidy profit?
I was doing some work for Sony when the PSP came out and had the opportunity of buying one at Staff Discount price and had no hesitation in doing so. I was planning to cash in on eBay but the wife took a fancy to it and it is sitting in a cupboard destined to be her Christmas present right now.
We live in a free market economy here. If you have something to sell that someone else wants to buy, then you sell it for as much as the market will take. Isn't that what Capitalism is all about?
>> Edited by JonRB on Tuesday 29th November 16:25
I very much suspect that the people moaning are the ones who wanted one and didn't pre-order in time. Case of sour grapes. If they had two would they sell it at cost to someone less fortunate or would they cash in and make a tidy profit?
I was doing some work for Sony when the PSP came out and had the opportunity of buying one at Staff Discount price and had no hesitation in doing so. I was planning to cash in on eBay but the wife took a fancy to it and it is sitting in a cupboard destined to be her Christmas present right now.
We live in a free market economy here. If you have something to sell that someone else wants to buy, then you sell it for as much as the market will take. Isn't that what Capitalism is all about?
>> Edited by JonRB on Tuesday 29th November 16:25
timmy30 said:
Hmm well for starters you need to be clear on the subtle or not so subtle difference between those who develop and make a product that meets a demand ( but involves risks such as the demand not being there ) such as coke, or pure speculators who certainly in this case actually do not seem to be providing any kind of service, infact they seem intent of creating a market shortage from which they will profit by short term price rises of Xboxes.
Wholly disagree with this. While there are, and I suspect always will be those for whom ordering 100 units as a speculative effort is a worthwhile venture, the greatest blip in demand will be driven by those who have two delivery slots, one with Game and one with Comet, for example. Should we blame these people, given the stories of stores cancelling paid for pre-orders in the other threads?
Nothing in life is black or white, but I tend to agree with Bob, in that its down to your own conscience. Which is why, being an utterly amoral person, I might consider keeping mine for a couple of weeks, then looking at supply and demand for the Xmas rush
No problem here Bob.
If you're daft enough to pay over the odds for something as trivial as a gaming console then I don't think you've any grounds for complaint.
You could always wait - you do have that choice. It's not like we're talking about buying up stocks of life-saving drugs is it?
If you're daft enough to pay over the odds for something as trivial as a gaming console then I don't think you've any grounds for complaint.
You could always wait - you do have that choice. It's not like we're talking about buying up stocks of life-saving drugs is it?
I haven't read the rest of the post, so apologies if I repeat something.
Stores/manufacturers deliberately understock on popular items. It raises the interest if it is seen as a hard-to-get, must-have item. Many stores will stock certain items cheaply, as 'loss-leaders' - they advertise their low price, people go in to buy it, and will often buy other items too. This works especially well in supermarkets - you pop in because Kronenburg is at a great price, but while you are there you get some loo rolls, milk, a loaf of bread, etc.
I fell foul of this recently. Aldi were advertising sewing machines for £40 - a fantastic price. I was there for 9:50am on the morning they were in store. They had sold out well before then. People were buying two and three. I tried every store between redcar and sunderland, same story at all. I figured people buying multiple would list them on e-bay - to date I havent seen a single one, so who knows how many 6 armed, 3 legged machinists are in the local area.
I was quite upset by this as I had my heart set on one and have ended up spending twice as much for one.
The result has been that now, when I see offers, I wont even bother going to try to get one. I'm sure they wont be too upset, but Aldi have now lost my custom, except in a business capacity.
I fully expected the people buying multiple to list them on e-bay at a profit, but as mentioned, they haven't. I don't see anything unethical in buying and re-selling, but I think it is unfair to do when it is an item people are trying to get that could cause upset, such as a child who has their heart set on a games console.
Stores/manufacturers deliberately understock on popular items. It raises the interest if it is seen as a hard-to-get, must-have item. Many stores will stock certain items cheaply, as 'loss-leaders' - they advertise their low price, people go in to buy it, and will often buy other items too. This works especially well in supermarkets - you pop in because Kronenburg is at a great price, but while you are there you get some loo rolls, milk, a loaf of bread, etc.
I fell foul of this recently. Aldi were advertising sewing machines for £40 - a fantastic price. I was there for 9:50am on the morning they were in store. They had sold out well before then. People were buying two and three. I tried every store between redcar and sunderland, same story at all. I figured people buying multiple would list them on e-bay - to date I havent seen a single one, so who knows how many 6 armed, 3 legged machinists are in the local area.
I was quite upset by this as I had my heart set on one and have ended up spending twice as much for one.
The result has been that now, when I see offers, I wont even bother going to try to get one. I'm sure they wont be too upset, but Aldi have now lost my custom, except in a business capacity.
I fully expected the people buying multiple to list them on e-bay at a profit, but as mentioned, they haven't. I don't see anything unethical in buying and re-selling, but I think it is unfair to do when it is an item people are trying to get that could cause upset, such as a child who has their heart set on a games console.
princeperch said:
If someone is willing to pay it....
That's the key point for me. Value is merely how much someone is prepared to pay. Although there is huge scholarary disagreement about what constitutes ethical practice and what doesn't. As I'm finding out now in Marketing philosophy...
neil.b said:With all due respect, Bollocks. You can drink tap water or a cordial for virtualy nothing
And just picking up on the over-priced soft drinks topped up with ice. Yes I bloody complain. Pubs have you by the short and curlies if you have to drink a non-alcoholic drink. That's not smart business acumen it's robbery.
If you don't think it's worth it don't buy it
Incorrigible said:
And just picking up on the over-priced soft drinks topped up with ice. Yes I bloody complain. Pubs have you by the short and curlies if you have to drink a non-alcoholic drink. That's not smart business acumen it's robbery.
If you don't think it's worth it don't buy it
But robbery IS smart business acumen, it just happens to be illegal.
Incorrigible said:
If you don't think it's worth it don't buy it
I don't, but that's not the point.
Try asking for a glass of cordial. I'm sure they won't say "Well, the bottle only costs 1.50, well actually 70p trade, and we've only put a spits worth in the glass....so lets call it 10 pence...."
There is nothing at all wrong with buying something and selling it on for more than you paid. There is nothing wrong with pricing the product as high as the market demand will bear. That is just business. Its what our entire society is based on.
The whiners who believe selling on XBoxes are just that - whiners.
It it wrong to get yourself on the waiting list for a new model car and "sell" your slot for a few grand to someone newly rich who wants it more badly than you do? No. Its just business.
I think the earlier post that pointed out that this was not a question of ethics was exactly right. Ethics come into play when you do things like knowingly sell a product that does not work or does not meet specifications or is bad for the customer.
For example: the act of buying inexpensive Heroin in large quantities, dividing it into smaller quantities and selling it on at a profit is just wholesale. Nothing wrong with *that*. The thing that's WRONG is knowingly selling on a product that is illegal, or that is very dangerous in excess, or is addictive, or has been cut with something dire or or or...it is these things that are WRONG. Not trading.
The whiners who believe selling on XBoxes are just that - whiners.
It it wrong to get yourself on the waiting list for a new model car and "sell" your slot for a few grand to someone newly rich who wants it more badly than you do? No. Its just business.
I think the earlier post that pointed out that this was not a question of ethics was exactly right. Ethics come into play when you do things like knowingly sell a product that does not work or does not meet specifications or is bad for the customer.
For example: the act of buying inexpensive Heroin in large quantities, dividing it into smaller quantities and selling it on at a profit is just wholesale. Nothing wrong with *that*. The thing that's WRONG is knowingly selling on a product that is illegal, or that is very dangerous in excess, or is addictive, or has been cut with something dire or or or...it is these things that are WRONG. Not trading.
UKBob said:
Why is making money or a profit seen as bad rather than industrious, when the playing field is even, everyone has the same opportunity, and certain people choose to act whilst others do not. If kids these days can make £100 quid in an afternoon before they are teenagers, well done. Its more than I made as a child.
It's something to do with our culture.
A lot of people really do think that money is only appropriated by underhand means or that desiring more money is somehow wrong.
This appears totally unconnected with reality. i.e. if you worked hard you "cheated", if you won it or were given it "it wasn't fair". And if you want to work hard for more money in the future you are "a workaholic" or "arrogant" (read getting above your station in the pecking order!), I'm not joking, the accusation of arrogance against anyone who wants to better themselves is very common!
Other cultures don't have these hang ups. The US seems to think the reverse, i.e. that if you have money then you must have done something right or you were lucky, if you want more money then good luck to you.
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