Discussion
pablo said:Yes, and he deserves credit for that.
agreed. but the sport needs people like him, to me he is one of the few who will say what we wants and not what his contract wants him to say.
On the other hand, he's been paid a staggering amount of money to be the employee of the sponsors. In return for that, the least he could have done was to make himself available on a regular basis for PR, sponsor meetings, get-togethers with the fans, etc., instead of acting like Great Garbo at every opportunity.
You never saw his dad doing a prima donna routine.
Dont think this will be the last we here of the Villeneuve/BMW saga... he's a sensitive soul is Jacques and he will know perfectly well why he was kept on - not because they wanted him, but because they had to take him.
I dont see Thiesen and Jacques getting along whatsoever, they are like chalk and cheese. Id say he wont make it to the end of the season. I hope he does because i admire him in some ways and his dad was/is a legend, but we all know what happened at BAR when Mr Richards arrived...
I dont see Thiesen and Jacques getting along whatsoever, they are like chalk and cheese. Id say he wont make it to the end of the season. I hope he does because i admire him in some ways and his dad was/is a legend, but we all know what happened at BAR when Mr Richards arrived...
Great for the sport that he will be in an F1 car nxt yr.
Not a huge fan and he doesnt seem that quick these days but if you watch you'll see he's a terrific fighter on circuit.
And you can't deny he's a character off circuit, one of the few drivers that expresses any sort of an opinion about things other than 'thanks to my sponsors, the tyres were good, yawn, yawn yawn.. JV provides the journo's with info' that makes very readable copy in autosport/motorsport new etc and F1 would be a much duller place without him.
I've always liked the way he'll fight tooth and nail with the quick guys even if he's miles down the leaderboard, meanwhile Mr Button will gladly wave Mr M Schumacher through at the first glimse of a red nosecone.
Not a huge fan and he doesnt seem that quick these days but if you watch you'll see he's a terrific fighter on circuit.
And you can't deny he's a character off circuit, one of the few drivers that expresses any sort of an opinion about things other than 'thanks to my sponsors, the tyres were good, yawn, yawn yawn.. JV provides the journo's with info' that makes very readable copy in autosport/motorsport new etc and F1 would be a much duller place without him.
I've always liked the way he'll fight tooth and nail with the quick guys even if he's miles down the leaderboard, meanwhile Mr Button will gladly wave Mr M Schumacher through at the first glimse of a red nosecone.
rallycross said:True, but this includes JV's bonehead moves such as taking off Montoya at Suzuka. It's one thing to be a fighter, and it's another to muck up someone else's race because of your own obstinacy.
I've always liked the way he'll fight tooth and nail with the quick guys even if he's miles down the leaderboard, meanwhile Mr Button will gladly wave Mr M Schumacher through at the first glimse of a red nosecone.
ceejay said:The very best were fallible, like the rest of us humans except much less so.
Crikey,
You'll be judging Gilles by his accident with Peterson next......
Ceejay
I don't recall anyone's ever complaining that Gilles made his car wide or unnecessarily got in people's way.
I don't have any special animus towards JV, but the guy has taken a hell of a lot out of the sport and still seems to harrass people and act like there's a championship at stake although he's not been competitive for eight years.
I respect his forthrightness, criticise his ingratitude, and wish he got in other drivers' way less often.
I certainly don't condone holding up cars that are putting a lap on you but if it's for position then it's fair game, that's racing, and as far as I'm concerned theres far too little of it. To be fair JV was poor last year, BUT for the last 8 years he has had pi$$ poor equipment. In F1 these days you can't compete if you don't have the car, it's as simple as that. Motivation is easily lost. Mind you that's not new, Gilles had a T5 when he was right at the top of his game, suddenly the fastest driver out there looked 'slow' and the 79 Championship winner failed to qualify. And as for holding cars up (often in a slower car)...who could forget Jarama in 81, maybe Gilles should have got out of the way as soon as Jones spun out, I mean he didn't have a hope of the championship at that stage. Mind you lucky for us he didn't turned out to be one the best ever races in the history of F1.
Where do you draw the line? in front of your armchair?, the TV? or split second decisions at 180mph?
Ceejay
Where do you draw the line? in front of your armchair?, the TV? or split second decisions at 180mph?
Ceejay
ceejay said:
To be fair JV was poor last year, BUT for the last 8 years he has had pi$$ poor equipment.
Ceejay
Well, if he and his manager had elected not to rape the team, spend less on fripperies and channel too much effort into image rather than racing, they might've delivered him a more competitive car. As it was, it took David Richards' nous to help the team turn the corner.
I still haven't seen any concrete evidence that JV caused the JPM shunt - JPM has a knack of putting his car in positions where accidents happen. For instance I am 100% certain that he chopped Monteiro for no other reason than to teach him a lesson.
JPM and JV have a lot in common as it happens...and yes, F1 would be poorer without them.
JV's problem is, next year's BMW Sauber isn't going to be that competitive and it'll take a couple of years before it may be challenging for a podium - and JV hasn't that long - in fact he'll be bowing out next year.
rubystone said:We punters aren't in a position to know, although JPM would have had to be even loonier than normal to intentionally overdrive the car in that situation. Also, I didn't see anyone else, including Villeneuve, subsequently take JV's line that caused JPM to go off.
I still haven't seen any concrete evidence that JV caused the JPM shunt - JPM has a knack of putting his car in positions where accidents happen.
Villeneuve did receive a 25 second penalty for the maneuvre. Usually the more experienced drivers don't get slapped on the hand that much unless they have been truly out of line (such as JPM was at Moncao).
I'm no fan of Jacques. I feel that there is plenty of talent out there that deserves a shot at the big time and he is just occupying a seat that could be put to better use by any number of drivers.
His unsporting behaviour is second only to that of Michael Schumacher.
Far from being an asset to any team, or to F1 in general, I feel he is a liability and should have exited the stage some years ago.
His unsporting behaviour is second only to that of Michael Schumacher.
Far from being an asset to any team, or to F1 in general, I feel he is a liability and should have exited the stage some years ago.
ceejay said:
I certainly don't condone holding up cars that are putting a lap on you but if it's for position then it's fair game, that's racing, and as far as I'm concerned theres far too little of it. To be fair JV was poor last year, BUT for the last 8 years he has had pi$$ poor equipment.
BAR had pi$$ poor equipment as you put it because they had a driver who was being paid a huge amount of money - money that could of been better spent on development of the car. They even appealed to him to reduce his pay demand so they could spend it on the car and in return they would extend the final year of the contract one further year. Remember he held their balls to the fire to ensure he got his £20m for his final season at BAR? And remember when BAR used another driver for the final two races of that season because they were sick of him - and just count how many teams rushed to sign him up for the following season.
He even tried to play the hard done by card - when BAR publically stated that they had absolutely NO INTENTIONS of employing him for the following season and were not even going to waste their time in any sort of negotiations either. He talked to the press about it being unfair! Talk about burning a bridge - he personally aimed a few tactical nuclear weapons at that bridge! Never have I seen a team boss completely rule out negotiations so publically as BAR did to JV.
So after this leech had bled this team dry - how many teams jumped at the chance of having a bad mouth egotistical Canadian with dreams of grandieur drive for them? Errm, not one. He eventually got a drive for a few races at the end of the following season with Sauber. Who in their own blind stupidity are probably reeling from the decision they made 1 year ago.
tinman0 said:
[quote=ceejay]
So after this leech had bled this team dry - how many teams jumped at the chance of having a bad mouth egotistical Canadian with dreams of grandieur drive for them? Errm, not one. He eventually got a drive for a few races at the end of the following season with Sauber. Who in their own blind stupidity are probably reeling from the decision they made 1 year ago.
Puts pedant hat on - it was Renault that offered him the drives, but granted, he may have already secured a Sauber contract when he took up that offer.
Can't disagree with anything else you say though - although being pedantic (again) I think his final salary was US$20m...
Finally, Sauber aren't paying him a lot of money - I think he's on about £2m max plus points bonuses
rubystone said:
[quote=ceejay]
So after this leech had bled this team dry - how many teams jumped at the chance of having a bad mouth egotistical Canadian with dreams of grandieur drive for them? Errm, not one. He eventually got a drive for a few races at the end of the following season with Sauber. Who in their own blind stupidity are probably reeling from the decision they made 1 year ago.
Puts pedant hat on - it was Renault that offered him the drives, but granted, he may have already secured a Sauber contract when he took up that offer.
Can't disagree with anything else you say though - although being pedantic (again) I think his final salary was US$20m...
Finally, Sauber aren't paying him a lot of money - I think he's on about £2m max plus points bonuses
Haha - It was renault! Sorry! Had a nagging thought it wasn't Sauber but didn't have a chance to get my facts checked first.
Tinman, if you really think JV taking a paycut of say 15m US would have transformed the performance of that BAR when hundreds of millions had got it to where it was you live in a dream world. Don't forget the team used JV's name from an early stage to get sponsor deals and the like so they had the budget to start with. When contracts are agreed including salaries I think it's completely wrong for someone like DR to bring it into the public domain the way he did. How would you feel if your boss did that to you?????? Where would your loyalties lie?????
Ceejay
Ceejay
ceejay said:
Tinman, if you really think JV taking a paycut of say 15m US would have transformed the performance of that BAR when hundreds of millions had got it to where it was you live in a dream world. Don't forget the team used JV's name from an early stage to get sponsor deals and the like so they had the budget to start with. When contracts are agreed including salaries I think it's completely wrong for someone like DR to bring it into the public domain the way he did. How would you feel if your boss did that to you?????? Where would your loyalties lie?????
Ceejay
I beg to differ. Pollock and Villeneuve put together a deal with British American Tobacco to buy the assets of the ailing Tyrell team in 1998. This gave them an easy route into F1 viz. facilities, staff and the Concorde Agreement Bond at a time when other routes would have cost fortunes. At this time, JV and Pollock tied BAR up tightly in a watertight multi-year contract, which increased JV's salary on a step basis over (I think) 4 years. Having done all of this, all three parties set about spending BAT's millions on expensive fripperies such as motorhomes, split liveries and so on, without really worrying about the bedrock of the team. With Postlethwaite having moved on, BAR lacked a decent design head for starters.
I am sure that the total non-BAT sponsors for BAR never exceeeded 10% of the entire budget and that JV was hardly a sponsor's dream ticket - did his presence bring any sponsors to Williams for instance?.
I also believe that DR was under pressure from Honda to stem the profligacies that were there for all to see, starting with pruning JV's salary.
>> Edited by rubystone on Tuesday 6th December 14:16
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