Farboud v M14 - discuss?!
Discussion
It seems to me that the Farboud (when it finally arrives) may compete with the M14. They seem to have completely restyled and reworked it from the one we say in Birmingham a couple of years ago too.
FYI, just rcvd their newsletter and they are going for a compressor now (was the Ford V6 with twin turbos). It will be CF and they make an interesting point about a worldwide shortage of CF materials due to the airbus project.
Oh and Martin, they will do you one in any colour you like!
FYI, just rcvd their newsletter and they are going for a compressor now (was the Ford V6 with twin turbos). It will be CF and they make an interesting point about a worldwide shortage of CF materials due to the airbus project.
Oh and Martin, they will do you one in any colour you like!
This car surely takes the award for the most restarts in the history of motor manufacturing! It's been re-engineered more times than a Veyron, which doesn't bode well IMHO.
Saying that, it's got Chris Marsh behind it, and he certainly knows how to keep a british sportscar company going along with little or no sales given his time at Marcos, so who knows. They say they have a firm order for 150 cars @ 50 per year from the US, and if that's true, that may enable them to keep going?
As for it competing with the M14, that is a very very crowded space, and if they have any sense they will keep well clear of that part of the market until they have at least as much 'kudos' as Lee gained with the M12. We've seen far too many companies think the £70k car is the way to riches, only to never be seen after four or five years of noise.
With no proven track record, it's going to be a very brave person to dive straight into that arena.
J
Saying that, it's got Chris Marsh behind it, and he certainly knows how to keep a british sportscar company going along with little or no sales given his time at Marcos, so who knows. They say they have a firm order for 150 cars @ 50 per year from the US, and if that's true, that may enable them to keep going?
As for it competing with the M14, that is a very very crowded space, and if they have any sense they will keep well clear of that part of the market until they have at least as much 'kudos' as Lee gained with the M12. We've seen far too many companies think the £70k car is the way to riches, only to never be seen after four or five years of noise.
With no proven track record, it's going to be a very brave person to dive straight into that arena.
J
Chris and I had decided to scrap the chassis you have seen in prototype. The thing was a mess to be honest, half a job, Arash had the right idea but the 2M didnt buy him much, I think he got skinned along the way. But the car also had some inherent suspension problems, not enough torsional stiffness, a bad cabin and was heavy among many resons. So I designed a completely new rolling chassis underneath, the chassis is now stressed skin carbon on a basic but very stiff and light steel skeleton, with engine fitment via subframe. The suspension is all new and features front and rear toe/bump steer adustment, anti squat/dive/lift and a low ride rate to make the thing plush but taught for everyday use or everyday thrashing about. The chassis structure had to completely change because I wanted a low rear bulkead to give a cabin that felt larger and to give as much rear viz as posible. New structure was built to suit the body, it is beautiful (the body) but Chris sorted the few bits that weren't quite right.
The body itself is very high quality carbon-prepreg, vac-bagged and ripple-free. The two guys who are making this happen with Chris are Shane and Marcus, Marcus of course came from "Willy's" starting just before I finished the design in June.
I can't really give out any tech info obviously, but it should be pretty mint. I hope so obviously.
>> Edited by ashgaunt on Saturday 3rd December 18:42
The body itself is very high quality carbon-prepreg, vac-bagged and ripple-free. The two guys who are making this happen with Chris are Shane and Marcus, Marcus of course came from "Willy's" starting just before I finished the design in June.
I can't really give out any tech info obviously, but it should be pretty mint. I hope so obviously.
>> Edited by ashgaunt on Saturday 3rd December 18:42
I hate to say it, but I've heard that sort of story time and time again.....Why so negative? At least Farboud are keeping their potential customers informed via a quarterly newsletter including photos of development. Not so on the M14 which isnt exactly being delivered to original timescale! I also do not believe the Farboud is competing in the £70k plus market as provision prices seem much lower. BTW this is from someone who has a deposit sitting on an M14 and is eagerly awaiting December "announcement".
Surely some healthy competition should be welcomed not dismissed out of hand.
Surely some healthy competition should be welcomed not dismissed out of hand.
Well I've been on their mailing list for info/newsletters from day one,and recently I've received the grand total of bugga all. In the early days I loved the car and its potential, even speaking to Arash (a very nice bloke with real enthusiasm)in person and on the phone, with plans to see it at it's (then)home in Cambridge when the original car had its price dropped.Since he left,the only contact has been at shows where I've been met with countless excuses and broken promises and very little substance.Having waited 3 or 4 years for several new models of TVR when I've had deposits down, I do understand some of the problems, but as I said in an earlier post to me at least,its lost too much credibilty. I wish it well, but it won't be seeing any of my funds unfortunately.
>> Edited by sjc on Sunday 4th December 10:08
>> Edited by sjc on Sunday 4th December 10:08
It's not lost credibility in my eyes as that was a different car, business, owner, factory etc. The car is all new aparts from the general shape and badge as from this year and so it's unfair to count anything that has gone before, the car is a fresh design with a new guy at the helm, Farboud are sending newsletters out to the hundreds of deposit holders taken this year and these docs are also on their website I believe.
At the end of the day, its a new British sportscar. Like the very few, such as Farboud and Noble, working hard in a very competitive arena, to show a finger to the big boys, I would have thought it better to support each other, rather than instigate a rift?
I have done my bit to the best of my ability to provide a machine that should be able to compete with anything up to 100K in terms of performance, comfort, ease of use and dynamics so when it's out there we'll just have to see...
I bid you lot fairwell, I'm obviously not welcome on this forum anymore.
At the end of the day, its a new British sportscar. Like the very few, such as Farboud and Noble, working hard in a very competitive arena, to show a finger to the big boys, I would have thought it better to support each other, rather than instigate a rift?
I have done my bit to the best of my ability to provide a machine that should be able to compete with anything up to 100K in terms of performance, comfort, ease of use and dynamics so when it's out there we'll just have to see...
I bid you lot fairwell, I'm obviously not welcome on this forum anymore.
ashgaunt said:
I bid you lot fairwell, I'm obviously not welcome on this forum anymore.
Ash, remember this is a forum where people post comment, based on knowledge or just pure opinion, for the common good. I also felt there was negativity (unfounded IMHO as, what do we know for sure about the M14 other than what we are told (OK, so we all saw one once!)).
Please don't take the comments personally as, IMHO, your background and connection is a benefit to us all!
Ash,
When you are asking for £70k of anyones hard earned money they will take a very different view. Like Andy (sjc) I've had my fair share of deposits on new cars that never materialised, or when they did, they weren't what I was expecting.
As for you saying you aren't welcome, what on earth gave you that idea? To be honest, statements like that to your "target" customers are more likely to annoy them and get your car dismissed out of hand. Remember that your comments can become easily missinterpreted on the Internet, and statements like your could do your car some serious damage.
If you re-read my post I said now that Chris is at the helm it could well have a chance, however, I have also heard statements about how its an "all new car, it's nothing like the old one, and it's going to be great" about many many cars, and quite a few of them that I had deposits on haven't materialised or I pulled out due to waiting too long.
Ash - the best of luck, but you also need to be realistic about your chances and if it all folds you really do have to be prepared for that, as statistically the odds are stacked against you.
J
When you are asking for £70k of anyones hard earned money they will take a very different view. Like Andy (sjc) I've had my fair share of deposits on new cars that never materialised, or when they did, they weren't what I was expecting.
As for you saying you aren't welcome, what on earth gave you that idea? To be honest, statements like that to your "target" customers are more likely to annoy them and get your car dismissed out of hand. Remember that your comments can become easily missinterpreted on the Internet, and statements like your could do your car some serious damage.
If you re-read my post I said now that Chris is at the helm it could well have a chance, however, I have also heard statements about how its an "all new car, it's nothing like the old one, and it's going to be great" about many many cars, and quite a few of them that I had deposits on haven't materialised or I pulled out due to waiting too long.
Ash - the best of luck, but you also need to be realistic about your chances and if it all folds you really do have to be prepared for that, as statistically the odds are stacked against you.
J
ashgaunt said:
I bid you lot fairwell, I'm obviously not welcome on this forum anymore.
Dear Ash,
Don't be put of by the Noble bias on this forum - its to be expected. If I recollect you had a hand in the design of the car we all love so as far as I am concerned you are an honary member and welcome any time.
Regards
Paul C
I know, Justin, much depends on it's outcome for me too obviously, and I'll get you a test drive so you can tell me in person what you think. But, as far as posting is concerned, I usually just say what I think don't I. I'm not posting from any stand point except for my own, just as everyone else does on here. So when I've stuck my input into a thread its cos I just like to help people. The work with Chris is contractual, my design company will benefeit if it does well but they wouldn't be my customers would they, they'd be Farboud's.
I know how things can be taken out of context, the press do it all the time, but at the end of the day, I always try and say it how it is. If I'm wrong I take it on the chin and move on. Just trying to do my best.
Thx Paul, I love the banter and the car, even tho I don't get much chance to follow it sometimes.
>> Edited by ashgaunt on Sunday 4th December 16:30
I know how things can be taken out of context, the press do it all the time, but at the end of the day, I always try and say it how it is. If I'm wrong I take it on the chin and move on. Just trying to do my best.
Thx Paul, I love the banter and the car, even tho I don't get much chance to follow it sometimes.
>> Edited by ashgaunt on Sunday 4th December 16:30
Ah. I didn't realise you were just under contract, the way you worded it it sounded like you were employed at Farbound. Certainly the risks are lesser for you therefore, and I'm sure you'll get to be involved from a reward basis sooner or later.
I take what you say about "saying it as it is", but I've done that with work related things and lived to regret it later, although I will repeat I wasn't having a "pop" at you, or saying you'll fail, just that this sort of story (FBS, M250, TVR, Ascari three or four times etc.) has been around, although to be honest that's probably why we lead the world in sportscar design.
I'd love a drive when you've got it finished
As I said in my first post, it will be interesting to see if it can be pulled off, Chris certainly knows how to keep small british manufacturers alive!
J
>> Edited by joust on Sunday 4th December 16:34
I take what you say about "saying it as it is", but I've done that with work related things and lived to regret it later, although I will repeat I wasn't having a "pop" at you, or saying you'll fail, just that this sort of story (FBS, M250, TVR, Ascari three or four times etc.) has been around, although to be honest that's probably why we lead the world in sportscar design.
I'd love a drive when you've got it finished
As I said in my first post, it will be interesting to see if it can be pulled off, Chris certainly knows how to keep small british manufacturers alive!
J
>> Edited by joust on Sunday 4th December 16:34
[quote=ashgaunt]It's not lost credibility in my eyes as that was a different car, business, owner, factory etc. [quote]
Bloody Hell ! it's turned into Triggers broom! 
[Quote=ashgaunt]
At the end of the day, its a new British sportscar. Like the very few, such as Farboud and Noble, working hard in a very competitive arena, to show a finger to the big boys, I would have thought it better to support each other, rather than instigate a rift? [quote]
As for support thats exactly what I was trying to do in being serious about buying one If you look at my profile in my car history you'll see I quite like English sportscars. What rift are you referring to?
[quote]
I have done my bit to the best of my ability to provide a machine that should be able to compete with anything up to 100K in terms of performance, comfort, ease of use and dynamics so when it's out there we'll just have to see... [quote]
And I totally applaud that, and as I said in a previous post I still wish the project well (and of course your own company)and hope the car is truly great.
[quote]
I bid you lot fairwell, I'm obviously not welcome on this forum anymore. [quote]
Frankly, I haven't got a clue where you have got that from. I/we were only talking from experience but that sort of comment has a unfortunate shade of FBS about it.
>> Edited by sjc on Sunday 4th December 19:18
Bloody Hell ! it's turned into Triggers broom! [Quote=ashgaunt]
At the end of the day, its a new British sportscar. Like the very few, such as Farboud and Noble, working hard in a very competitive arena, to show a finger to the big boys, I would have thought it better to support each other, rather than instigate a rift? [quote]
As for support thats exactly what I was trying to do in being serious about buying one If you look at my profile in my car history you'll see I quite like English sportscars. What rift are you referring to?
[quote]
I have done my bit to the best of my ability to provide a machine that should be able to compete with anything up to 100K in terms of performance, comfort, ease of use and dynamics so when it's out there we'll just have to see... [quote]
And I totally applaud that, and as I said in a previous post I still wish the project well (and of course your own company)and hope the car is truly great.
[quote]
I bid you lot fairwell, I'm obviously not welcome on this forum anymore. [quote]
Frankly, I haven't got a clue where you have got that from. I/we were only talking from experience but that sort of comment has a unfortunate shade of FBS about it.
>> Edited by sjc on Sunday 4th December 19:18
A Farboud was shown - I think - at Autosport show in 2001 with a big media splash then nothing really happened.
I think the biggest issue is that when you can buy a new Porsche 997 at less than £60K where is the motivation to gamble on a Farbound, M14, TVR, Mosler, Bristol, Invicta, MG SV etc??
I think you can appreciate a Noble M400 simply because it is a huge leap performance wise than most things sub £100K but as soon as you compromise on performance I think you struggle to appeal to customers - other than perhaps that very small bunch of people who simply want "something different".
These people do pay for that difference - be that in reliability, service schedule and/or cost and importantly quality (I was looking at a new Bristol just last week and couldn't believe the poor cabin quality for a £200K plus motor car).
Sadly for these manufacturers they are all fishing for much the same customers.
I think the biggest issue is that when you can buy a new Porsche 997 at less than £60K where is the motivation to gamble on a Farbound, M14, TVR, Mosler, Bristol, Invicta, MG SV etc??
I think you can appreciate a Noble M400 simply because it is a huge leap performance wise than most things sub £100K but as soon as you compromise on performance I think you struggle to appeal to customers - other than perhaps that very small bunch of people who simply want "something different".
These people do pay for that difference - be that in reliability, service schedule and/or cost and importantly quality (I was looking at a new Bristol just last week and couldn't believe the poor cabin quality for a £200K plus motor car).
Sadly for these manufacturers they are all fishing for much the same customers.
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