Discussion
Enjybenjy - the main reason on the elise is the delicate balance between understeer and oversteer through a variety of conditions. The advans are not going to be the panacea of handling improvement. They actually cost lotus less than the bridgestones! They are supposed to offer slightly more dry grip at the expense of slightly worse wet grip (according to Russell Carr at Lotus with whom I spoke when I was faced with this decision) The problem is that by adding front end grip, the car will be more prone to oversteer at the limits. Fine if you want this, but it is likely to be unpredictable when it occurs. I got given the wrong dot code tyres for the rear and the tail is already not as planted. Coupled to this, I added a front splitter which gives downforce. On the track through high speed corners, the back end has become a bit twitchy, in contrast to previously.
You can always put on a set of advans and keep the set of bridgestones (even the knackered fronts) and use them for airfield days (you can get second hand rims for the S2 cheaply as many people have upgraded to wider oz's). From my own experience - same tyres, just different side wall stiffness - stay away from unmatched sets on the elise. Other option is to sell them on pistonheads - rears last less than fronts anyway, so there should be a market.
>> Edited by shangani on Tuesday 13th December 10:19
You can always put on a set of advans and keep the set of bridgestones (even the knackered fronts) and use them for airfield days (you can get second hand rims for the S2 cheaply as many people have upgraded to wider oz's). From my own experience - same tyres, just different side wall stiffness - stay away from unmatched sets on the elise. Other option is to sell them on pistonheads - rears last less than fronts anyway, so there should be a market.
>> Edited by shangani on Tuesday 13th December 10:19
enjybenjy said:
How much would a rear pair of Bridgestones go for do you think?
I'll tell you in about a weeks time:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Elise-Tyres-bridgestone-225-45
They've done about 4K miles - 6-7mm?
The Advans are 'look' slightly wider on the front, right? (that's what the Lotus guy said to me at MPH05 anyway). Should I just get a pair of Bridges on the front? Fancy something wider to reduce the understeer and make it look a bit chunkier though...
The Advans are 'look' slightly wider on the front, right? (that's what the Lotus guy said to me at MPH05 anyway). Should I just get a pair of Bridges on the front? Fancy something wider to reduce the understeer and make it look a bit chunkier though...
Everyone seems to go on about understeer on the S2 - I have yet to experience major understeer on the track (oversteer aplenty though) and even on the road, the onset of understeer can be easily corrected by reducing the slip angle. I am still happy to get some warning before the back end overtakes me - especially if it is easy to stop. Also, if you want less understeer, consider a geo change - call Sinclaire's. Two front Bridgestones (not from a dealer) - they only make the correct CFE dot code in that size - and geo will cost you a lot less than a whole new set of tyres. Bear in mind that the advans are lotus only and are not exactly good value.
>> Edited by shangani on Tuesday 13th December 13:23
>> Edited by shangani on Tuesday 13th December 13:23
I don't wish to sound patronising, but the Elise is an easy car to understeer in - but is also an easy car to avoid understeer in. It requires a very deliberate driving style to get the most out of it, quite different to what is required in most other cars. It's much the same as trying to get the most out of a 911, you have to re-program how you drive.
Have you taken a driver education day/training with someone who knows the Elise well?
With regard to geo - when I got the new dampers put on and the car geo'd, I had an extra 0.2 degrees (if I remember rightly) of negative camber added to the front which made the front less prone to understeer - however, when it does let go at the front it is more abrupt now. Tyre pressures also make a bit difference: in the wet, colder conditions I drop 1psi out all round. A good gauge (not the one at the local petrol station) will make a big difference.
Apologies if it sounds like I'm teaching you how to suck eggs.
Have you taken a driver education day/training with someone who knows the Elise well?
With regard to geo - when I got the new dampers put on and the car geo'd, I had an extra 0.2 degrees (if I remember rightly) of negative camber added to the front which made the front less prone to understeer - however, when it does let go at the front it is more abrupt now. Tyre pressures also make a bit difference: in the wet, colder conditions I drop 1psi out all round. A good gauge (not the one at the local petrol station) will make a big difference.
Apologies if it sounds like I'm teaching you how to suck eggs.
I am running standard bridgestones, but the rears are the dot code CFE (should be DCK) I run them at 26 psi (ie lower) to compensate for the stiffer sidewalls. Lotus says this will be just fine - I am less sure. I considered the Yoko's, but they woould have been nearly £150 dearer. Also, at that time there was no feedback to be had on durability etc - I did not want A048 wear! My geo is standard. The alternate geo sinclaires offer is the Waspy geo setting. Some people swear by it, others not. Give sinclaires a call and ask first hand. If you do decide to get rid of the bridgestones give me a call - I am not confident on my CFE rears. (psychological maybe)
Tuscan - not at all, I hear what you are saying. I'd love to have training in this car to see how it can be driven. When I detect understeer, my instinct is to ease off a tad. Not that I approach this limit often.
My last car was a Marcos, if it started to understeer then you had to back off a bit.
Shangani - after what you said, and the fact that this is my only car and I use it everyday, I will most probably go for new RE040's on the front and keep the Geo as is. I think maybe a lot of it is that I DO actually need new front boots!
Thanks for the input.
My last car was a Marcos, if it started to understeer then you had to back off a bit.
Shangani - after what you said, and the fact that this is my only car and I use it everyday, I will most probably go for new RE040's on the front and keep the Geo as is. I think maybe a lot of it is that I DO actually need new front boots!
Thanks for the input.
Given the Elise's susceptability (so I'm told) to anything related to tyres and having had previous experience of mixing tyres, it's not the most ideal situation in the world, the above posts can testify.
Tyres are essentially about keeping you on the road and saving your life. Please don't scrimp on safety items like tyres as it'll just end up in tears.
It's all to do with the way different tyres girp and cut through water that makes mixing a bad idea. I wouldn't like to have oodles of grip on the front but less on the back in a mid engined car in the wet...
Of course it's entirely up to you but some of the people who posted above have been there and done that and I like to think that they know what they're on about.
Tyres are essentially about keeping you on the road and saving your life. Please don't scrimp on safety items like tyres as it'll just end up in tears.
It's all to do with the way different tyres girp and cut through water that makes mixing a bad idea. I wouldn't like to have oodles of grip on the front but less on the back in a mid engined car in the wet...
Of course it's entirely up to you but some of the people who posted above have been there and done that and I like to think that they know what they're on about.
Problem with the elise is that if you are understeering in a corner and then lift off abruptly, grip will return to the front tyres as the weight shifts forward. This makes the back end light and you can find yourself going into oversteer. (heard the term lift-off oversteer? dramatic when it happens I can assure you.)
The initial understeer was a safety net to give somne degree of warning before the back end lets rip. Too much front end grip and the first warning signs will be at the back end - ie oversteer not understeer. I have stayed with the standard geo as my car is my daily driver and frankly I am just not good enough to be bothering with major oversteer on public roads. It oversteers just fine on the track! I would go with the cash neutral option - Bridgestone fronts and a Walshy day. Also, if your fronts are shot, new ones will give better grip - especially at the moment - greasy roads.
The initial understeer was a safety net to give somne degree of warning before the back end lets rip. Too much front end grip and the first warning signs will be at the back end - ie oversteer not understeer. I have stayed with the standard geo as my car is my daily driver and frankly I am just not good enough to be bothering with major oversteer on public roads. It oversteers just fine on the track! I would go with the cash neutral option - Bridgestone fronts and a Walshy day. Also, if your fronts are shot, new ones will give better grip - especially at the moment - greasy roads.
enjybenjy said:
What's the Walshy day all about...? Where is it and how often does it run...? Thanks.
www.carlimits.com/
shangani said:
Everyone seems to go on about understeer on the S2 - I have yet to experience understeer on the track
Umm, yes you have ... having sat next to you on track going too hot into a corner and heading straight on towards the grass. Usually fixed by easing off the power enough to make the corner (except that one nice liftoff oversteer spin)
Widening the font tyres to 195 and getting them sticky with A048 will allow you to brake later and harder without locking and take corners faster without understeer, but the gap of safety between understeer and oversteer does get smaller.
True actually - I was trying to forget that! I did stray off the dry line onto the wet line though, but I got the entire corner wrong in terms of speed line etc. My liftoff oversteer spin that followed was a classic example of what I was saying about the safety margins, particularly if the car is an every day driver. I should rather have said that when getting the line right, I never felt hampered by noticeable understeer. If you tank any car fast enough into a corner and then try to steer too far (too much slip angle) just about ny car can be made to understeer.
At this point my recently ex friend
hbaumhardt will tell you that he has never seen me get a corner right on a track. 
Sadly compared to him, he may actually be right.
Later or tomorrow, look out on pistonheads TV for the other side of the handling spectrum. (oversteer ineptitude rather than continuing on in a straight line)
Unless you have really done a lot of driver training and are really confident with the handling at the limits, I wouldn't mess too much with either tyres or geo. Blokes like hbaumhardt with a lot of track experience have the tools at their disposal to deal with most eventualities handling wise. The standard setup is fast and relatively safe for a mid engined car. Oversteer orientated cars are great fun for an airfield hoon around, but as ones daily driver in all conditions, you may be asking for an off road excursion unless you really know what you are doing.
>> Edited by shangani on Tuesday 13th December 13:29
At this point my recently ex friend
hbaumhardt will tell you that he has never seen me get a corner right on a track. Sadly compared to him, he may actually be right. Later or tomorrow, look out on pistonheads TV for the other side of the handling spectrum. (oversteer ineptitude rather than continuing on in a straight line)
Unless you have really done a lot of driver training and are really confident with the handling at the limits, I wouldn't mess too much with either tyres or geo. Blokes like hbaumhardt with a lot of track experience have the tools at their disposal to deal with most eventualities handling wise. The standard setup is fast and relatively safe for a mid engined car. Oversteer orientated cars are great fun for an airfield hoon around, but as ones daily driver in all conditions, you may be asking for an off road excursion unless you really know what you are doing.
>> Edited by shangani on Tuesday 13th December 13:29
I've never driven an Elise quickly, but I think it is important to remember that most cars can be made to understeer, oversteer and achieve the ideal neutral state. It is what you have to do to get these things that is of interest and maybe concern! A well sorted car offers you all of these handling states in a bend with only gentle provocation and without sudden transitions between them. I wouldn't know where the Elise S2 fits into this, as I've never driven one on track and have only ever seen people driving S2s slowly, or being a hooligan on track - never just sensibly and smoothly.
I remember Clarkson complaining of understeer in the 111S on Top Gear. Sure, he was driving pretty badly; but Gavin Kershaw was being a complete lunatic to get the thing to oversteer much. I would like to have seen some smooth driving to see what effect gentle inputs have.
I remember Clarkson complaining of understeer in the 111S on Top Gear. Sure, he was driving pretty badly; but Gavin Kershaw was being a complete lunatic to get the thing to oversteer much. I would like to have seen some smooth driving to see what effect gentle inputs have.
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