IT agencies - past their sell-by date?
Discussion
am continuously amazed at the shocking state of IT recruitment agencies. Those of you out there who use them, can you say why?
It seems the client/employer has a good idea of what they want, they hand it over to a recruitment consultant who
(a) posts the ad on JobServe and/or
(b) searches through JobSite.
As their own technical knowledge seems to be zero, what value do they add?
How come employers don't simply get an account on JobSite and do the same search?
Is it a case of "I don't have time to do the recruitment"?
discuss!
>> Edited by 3200ac on Tuesday 13th December 15:32
It seems the client/employer has a good idea of what they want, they hand it over to a recruitment consultant who
(a) posts the ad on JobServe and/or
(b) searches through JobSite.
As their own technical knowledge seems to be zero, what value do they add?
How come employers don't simply get an account on JobSite and do the same search?
Is it a case of "I don't have time to do the recruitment"?
discuss!
>> Edited by 3200ac on Tuesday 13th December 15:32
3200ac said:
Is it a case of "I don't have time to do the recruitment
That and to make life simple for the HR dept when it comes to admin and pay. My current employer (a large multinational bank) will only deal with with 2 agencies basically. Doesn't matter how great your qualifications are, if you don't come through those agencies, you won't get employed. When i asked why, I was told that HR did it to make life easier for themselves, even though it means the bank pays way over the market rate for contractors (and the contractors subsequently get shafted by the agency who can hold them to ransom because of the lack of competition).
beano500 said:
It's not just in IT (not that that's any consolation).
I am increasingly having people ring me up and ask stupid questions which show that they have no idea what's on my CV or a firm's job spec or requirements. They certainly have no concept of "matching" the two up in any way.
What you are partly reffering to is called screening and qualification and is used to sift out the people who tell fibs on their CV. I've used it before when recruiting and it really does help. If you quiz someone on random points on their CV, it's a bit of a memory test to see if they can accurately remember the lie.
Anyone can write a CV that looks good but backing it up convincingly is the clincher.FourWheelDrift said:
What you are partly reffering to is called screening and qualification and is used to sift out the people who tell fibs on their CV. I've used it before when recruiting and it really does help. If you quiz someone on random points on their CV, it's a bit of a memory test to see if they can accurately remember the lie.
True, but the most annoying questions are the ones that jsut show the agency's complete lack of technical knowledge. I honestly will scream next time i get asked if i have Terminal Server experience, given that my entire CV is based around having worked on Citrix for the last few years.
FourWheelDrift said:I know what you mean - but I was not referring to this.
What you are partly reffering to is called screening and qualification and is used to sift out the people who tell fibs on their CV. I've used it before when recruiting and it really does help. If you quiz someone on random points on their CV, it's a bit of a memory test to see if they can accurately remember the lie.
The people I'm talking about are firms that have already had one-to-one meetings with me. I almost always insist upon it before they put me forward for anything.
It's the next person in the orifice who picks up my CV and makes it try to fit some assignment they've just had in.
Unfortunately this leads to "CV Inflation" with bigger and bigger boasts and bigger and bigger fibs. It becomes merely a test of short term memory, which, when you have done GCSEs, A levels, 3 or 4 years of a Degree and so on, isn't a biggie.
This also leads to people with paper qualifications (but little sense of the real world) getting work ahead of people like me who can't afford several grand a year to update pieces of paper.
I.T. Recruitment agencies. I won't go on because I don't want to burst a blood vessel this close to Christmas.
Mike
This also leads to people with paper qualifications (but little sense of the real world) getting work ahead of people like me who can't afford several grand a year to update pieces of paper.
I.T. Recruitment agencies. I won't go on because I don't want to burst a blood vessel this close to Christmas.
Mike
My recent experinces of agencies wasn't good. I got sick of chasing them about a couple of contracts. Three times one agency told me that they were "going through the CV's tomorrow, we'll get back to you" and didn't. Another contract, another agency, again I did all the chasing, they were "talking to the client tomorrow" and would let me know. Three weeks later and given that it was an urgent requirement I presume no news isn't good news, but would a phone call have hurt?
I suspect usually its because they have just leached an existing vacancy off the internet somewhere and readvertised it themselves, and in fact the client has told them to f**k off. I know this happens - a couple of years ago the boot was on the other foot and I was recruiting. I placed one add myself, and the next day there were half a dozen clones of it on jobserve.
I'm sure there are good, respectable agencies out there that do add some value. Its just a shame that since I started contracting in 1989 I haven't yet met one.
No sorry - I have met one, Prospectus. But one out of how many?
I suspect usually its because they have just leached an existing vacancy off the internet somewhere and readvertised it themselves, and in fact the client has told them to f**k off. I know this happens - a couple of years ago the boot was on the other foot and I was recruiting. I placed one add myself, and the next day there were half a dozen clones of it on jobserve.
I'm sure there are good, respectable agencies out there that do add some value. Its just a shame that since I started contracting in 1989 I haven't yet met one.
No sorry - I have met one, Prospectus. But one out of how many?
I love agencies. I used to work in IT for one. They would regularly post fake jobs all over monster, fish4 etc etc so that "a candidate thinks that we are a really popular agency with a wide variety of jobs". I would say for every 'real' job they posted, they would also post a 'fake' job.
So, people get to spend ages tailoring their CVs and cover letters before sending them off, and little do they know that the job doesn't actually exist.
Maybe I just worked for a one-off agency....I'd like to think so, but suspect they aren't the only ones doing this
- A
So, people get to spend ages tailoring their CVs and cover letters before sending them off, and little do they know that the job doesn't actually exist.
Maybe I just worked for a one-off agency....I'd like to think so, but suspect they aren't the only ones doing this
- A
I used the same agent for the best part of 15 years and he was utterly brilliant, straight as a die, knowledgeable and well regarded in my very small pond.
Now that pond as disappeared I spent about 3 months earlier in the year dealing with various agencies from national ones to single chaps working out of bedrooms.
The variance is astounding but one thing is for sure, IT recruitment pays well and consequently attracts all sorts of geezers, some who genuinely have the gift and some who dont, the latter camp just end up being bloody annoying.
Its a lot better than it was though, in the mid 90's you'd get at least 10 calls a week tempting you away and all sorts of sharp practices to get names. 'We are putting together a 5-a-side tournament, could you give me the names of 5 Synon/2e developers please?'
Astonishing.
Now that pond as disappeared I spent about 3 months earlier in the year dealing with various agencies from national ones to single chaps working out of bedrooms.
The variance is astounding but one thing is for sure, IT recruitment pays well and consequently attracts all sorts of geezers, some who genuinely have the gift and some who dont, the latter camp just end up being bloody annoying.
Its a lot better than it was though, in the mid 90's you'd get at least 10 calls a week tempting you away and all sorts of sharp practices to get names. 'We are putting together a 5-a-side tournament, could you give me the names of 5 Synon/2e developers please?'
Astonishing.
Hmm. Well, regular PHers may well know my feelings already and the frequent run-ins I've had with various PHer agents (sorry, Recruitment Consultants) here on PH. I think the conclusion we came to is that not all agents are scum, there are a few very good ones and many of them are PHers. 
As I see it, agents provide 3 services to IT Contractors (note that I'm not talking about permanent employment here, just freelancer/contractor), of which only 2 are of benefit to me:
1) They allow a client to completely outsource recruitment so that they don't need an HR dept and/or don't need to sift through 100's of CVs. This is of no interest to me.
2) They provide a matchmaking service, matching the buyer (client) to the seller (me) in much the same way as an Estate Agent. This point is contentious, but from my point of view is the reality of the situation
3) They provide a payroll / factoring service, so that they will (allegedly) pay you even if the client doesn't.
Point (2) can be adequately covered with the likes of JobServe and, although I can't talk about it for legal reasons, I have experience of point (3) being a load of b0ll0cks with very few agencies wanting to carry risk and instead, in reality, expecting you to whistle until the client have paid them.
I would rather find clients myself, enter into a direct contract, and then use a service such as Lloyds TSB's Factoring & invoice discounting service on the grounds that it is a) more reliable and b) cheaper.
And that brings me on to the final point. Agencies are not on your side. They are not looking out for you. My father, an otherwise intelligent man, is still convinced that I have something akin to a Theatrical Agent, busily on the phone trying to get me new work and taking a percentage of my income. No, instead I have a group of wide boys trying to convince the client that I won't take a penny less than £50ph and trying to convince me that the client won't pay a penny more than £30ph, and keeping £20ph for doing bugger all.
Now, I mentioned Estate Agents earlier. You wouldn't pay an Estate Agent £200pcm, every month, for the entire time you live in the house. So why should I be paying an agent £NNph for every hour I bill the client regardless of whether it is a 1 month or 1 year contract? And as for renewals, exactly what does the agent do to continue to earn their money? "The client wants you to renew. Will you?", "Yeah, alright", "Great, I'll draw up a renewal contract".
I would much rather pay an agency £2000 for matchmaking, setup, etc., preferably in monthly instalments based on the expected duration of the contract, and then that's it. Permanent Recruitment Consultants take a fixed percentage of first-year salary, so they're used to taking a fixed fee. Why is Contractor Recruitment different?
Personally I think that recruitment needs a major shake-up with agencies starting to adopt a fixed-fee introduction service, leaving contractors free to choose whether to use the agency for Factoring or else a 3rd-Party like Lloyds TSB.
It's not going to happen though, because a lot of agents make a lot of money shafting contractor and client alike and parasitically feeding off the both of them, and clients are too stupid to realise (or care) and prefer to maintain their "preferred supplier list" (PSL) of agencies and get continuously shafted as a result. The contractor, as a result, is faced with the problem of a majority of clients being unwilling to enter into direct contracts and instead insisting on contractors coming through an agency on their PSL if, indeed, they'll even talk to the contractor in the first place.
Well, that turned into a bit of a rant, didn't it? Sorry about that (especially to the PHer agents who I always upset when I post stuff like this, but as I am always at pains to point out, there are good apples in every barrel even if 95% of the apples in a given barrel are rotten).
As I see it, agents provide 3 services to IT Contractors (note that I'm not talking about permanent employment here, just freelancer/contractor), of which only 2 are of benefit to me:
1) They allow a client to completely outsource recruitment so that they don't need an HR dept and/or don't need to sift through 100's of CVs. This is of no interest to me.
2) They provide a matchmaking service, matching the buyer (client) to the seller (me) in much the same way as an Estate Agent. This point is contentious, but from my point of view is the reality of the situation
3) They provide a payroll / factoring service, so that they will (allegedly) pay you even if the client doesn't.
Point (2) can be adequately covered with the likes of JobServe and, although I can't talk about it for legal reasons, I have experience of point (3) being a load of b0ll0cks with very few agencies wanting to carry risk and instead, in reality, expecting you to whistle until the client have paid them.
I would rather find clients myself, enter into a direct contract, and then use a service such as Lloyds TSB's Factoring & invoice discounting service on the grounds that it is a) more reliable and b) cheaper.
And that brings me on to the final point. Agencies are not on your side. They are not looking out for you. My father, an otherwise intelligent man, is still convinced that I have something akin to a Theatrical Agent, busily on the phone trying to get me new work and taking a percentage of my income. No, instead I have a group of wide boys trying to convince the client that I won't take a penny less than £50ph and trying to convince me that the client won't pay a penny more than £30ph, and keeping £20ph for doing bugger all.
Now, I mentioned Estate Agents earlier. You wouldn't pay an Estate Agent £200pcm, every month, for the entire time you live in the house. So why should I be paying an agent £NNph for every hour I bill the client regardless of whether it is a 1 month or 1 year contract? And as for renewals, exactly what does the agent do to continue to earn their money? "The client wants you to renew. Will you?", "Yeah, alright", "Great, I'll draw up a renewal contract".
I would much rather pay an agency £2000 for matchmaking, setup, etc., preferably in monthly instalments based on the expected duration of the contract, and then that's it. Permanent Recruitment Consultants take a fixed percentage of first-year salary, so they're used to taking a fixed fee. Why is Contractor Recruitment different?
Personally I think that recruitment needs a major shake-up with agencies starting to adopt a fixed-fee introduction service, leaving contractors free to choose whether to use the agency for Factoring or else a 3rd-Party like Lloyds TSB.
It's not going to happen though, because a lot of agents make a lot of money shafting contractor and client alike and parasitically feeding off the both of them, and clients are too stupid to realise (or care) and prefer to maintain their "preferred supplier list" (PSL) of agencies and get continuously shafted as a result. The contractor, as a result, is faced with the problem of a majority of clients being unwilling to enter into direct contracts and instead insisting on contractors coming through an agency on their PSL if, indeed, they'll even talk to the contractor in the first place.
Well, that turned into a bit of a rant, didn't it? Sorry about that (especially to the PHer agents who I always upset when I post stuff like this, but as I am always at pains to point out, there are good apples in every barrel even if 95% of the apples in a given barrel are rotten).
Well speaking from the other side as an potential employer they are useless.
I continually get spammed with CV's which are of no interest. We do not use C++,VB,Delphi,Java or any .net development system yet I get bombarded with CV's with these skills on.
We dont do much web development so dont need ASP,PHP,PERL, Coldfusion etc. I am getting very tempted to tell the next agency to ring me that we are looking for someone with at least 5 years experience of Chill, Befunge and Intercal
I continually get spammed with CV's which are of no interest. We do not use C++,VB,Delphi,Java or any .net development system yet I get bombarded with CV's with these skills on.
We dont do much web development so dont need ASP,PHP,PERL, Coldfusion etc. I am getting very tempted to tell the next agency to ring me that we are looking for someone with at least 5 years experience of Chill, Befunge and Intercal
JonRB said:I had one agency taking a cut for 10 years off the same contract. 10 years. Your point about renewals is spot on, it makes no sense that they continue to feed off you for that length of time.
lots of absoultely spot-on stuff
The last agency I worked through did the usual "they won't pay more than X". They found out from me what rate I'd worked for the client at before (yes, they fixed me up with my own client, after getting me to sign a non-competition agreement) and charged thenm the the exact same amount, but knocked my rate back and ended up getting a 46% cut. They don't seem to realise that if you work in IT there's a fair chance that at some point you are going to find out what they are charging.
I prefer to work direct where I can. Its bad enough indirectly supporting the chavs of this world, but doing it directly by "payroll giving" sticks in the throat a bit.
victormeldrew said:
My recent experinces of agencies wasn't good. I got sick of chasing them about a couple of contracts. Three times one agency told me that they were "going through the CV's tomorrow, we'll get back to you" and didn't. Another contract, another agency, again I did all the chasing, they were "talking to the client tomorrow" and would let me know. Three weeks later and given that it was an urgent requirement I presume no news isn't good news, but would a phone call have hurt?
FourWheelDrift said:
I think it should be clearly pointed out on here that the scathing and ranting seems to be based on the contract market. I've never had any problems using permanent agencies for recruiting.
The last agent I went through for my permanent job was excellent. A couple of previous ones have been pretty bad, sending me the wrong address for an interview, putting me forward for jobs that it's obvious I have no interest in etc...
I think it helps as you get more specialised and the market you are looking in becomes smaller, as the agents really get to know their stuff and can actually help you beyond a database search.
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