Discussion
Hi All
Just thought I would share this with you. Had friends coming over today for a Christmas lunch and the wife had no Sausage meat!!. So off to the local Co Op. I've never been straight there as it's only around the corner; so after the normal 30-45 min warm up off to the shop. I've been out now for just under an hour(10 min walk to the shop)so I take the long way home. I start to feel guilty so put my foot down coming up to a round-a-bout. The back end came round so fast just caught it after a 360. Only due to luck and go-kart racing I think.
Let be careful, I though I would be posting another Cerbera lost.
Cheers
John
Just thought I would share this with you. Had friends coming over today for a Christmas lunch and the wife had no Sausage meat!!. So off to the local Co Op. I've never been straight there as it's only around the corner; so after the normal 30-45 min warm up off to the shop. I've been out now for just under an hour(10 min walk to the shop)so I take the long way home. I start to feel guilty so put my foot down coming up to a round-a-bout. The back end came round so fast just caught it after a 360. Only due to luck and go-kart racing I think.
Let be careful, I though I would be posting another Cerbera lost.
Cheers
John
why do you need sausage meet for a Christmas dinner? 
glad your okGood save. Nothing but dry roads for me in terms of exploring above 4k. Already had one 'brown-pants' moment and decided to just pootle round with the window down listening to the zorsts. I find that if you set the seat so that you can't get the accelerator all the way to the bulkhead then it removes the opportunity!
I just don't understand this. I've now read five or six accounts like this in the last year, and have no idea how this happens.
Unless you throttle it while going round the roundabout, how does the rear overtake the front on a straight no matter how much boot you give it unless your car is unbalanced or you have a problem with the brakes on one of the front wheels.
Booting it on the straight MUST mean that the rear wheels have less grip than the front, even more so in a front engined car. The rear wheels MUST lose traction to the ground before the front because I don't believe the Cerb can squat so badly as to transfer enough weight to the back.
This leaves the back wheels spinning and boot loads of traction at the front to steer with. Experience in my car (admittedly with Nitrons and 18" wheels on, although I don't think 18" does it too much credit) is that no matter how much boot you give it, the rears spin but the car is in no danger of rear overtaking front.
I think some work needs to be done here because all the big off's in the last year have been people saying 'It just suddenly surprised me while on the straight' now I tend to imagine a bit of poetic licence here and that deep down the drivers knew why the car had spun in retrospect but now I'm not so sure. One things for certain, if my cerb did that I would have a very very close look at it, and if I couldn't find a problem to solve I would sell the car as being too dangerous.
I have had some seriously hairy cars in my time but have never had a car that would bite without giving you any warning at all. I can provoke the hell outta my cerb and it is pretty predictable.
Unless you throttle it while going round the roundabout, how does the rear overtake the front on a straight no matter how much boot you give it unless your car is unbalanced or you have a problem with the brakes on one of the front wheels.
Booting it on the straight MUST mean that the rear wheels have less grip than the front, even more so in a front engined car. The rear wheels MUST lose traction to the ground before the front because I don't believe the Cerb can squat so badly as to transfer enough weight to the back.
This leaves the back wheels spinning and boot loads of traction at the front to steer with. Experience in my car (admittedly with Nitrons and 18" wheels on, although I don't think 18" does it too much credit) is that no matter how much boot you give it, the rears spin but the car is in no danger of rear overtaking front.
I think some work needs to be done here because all the big off's in the last year have been people saying 'It just suddenly surprised me while on the straight' now I tend to imagine a bit of poetic licence here and that deep down the drivers knew why the car had spun in retrospect but now I'm not so sure. One things for certain, if my cerb did that I would have a very very close look at it, and if I couldn't find a problem to solve I would sell the car as being too dangerous.
I have had some seriously hairy cars in my time but have never had a car that would bite without giving you any warning at all. I can provoke the hell outta my cerb and it is pretty predictable.
Julian64 said:
I just don't understand this. I've now read five or six accounts like this in the last year, and have no idea how this happens.
I do wonder if this has a lot to do with people moving from fairly powerful FWD cars to very powerful RWD, nailing it into a corner in a FWD is going to pull you round whilst doing the same in RWD is going to really ruin your day unless you're prepared for the consequences.
Just a thought, I did see that PHC had a history of Dolomites and I used to manage to get my Dolly sideways on many a roundabout when I was 18!
So maybe not in this instance. 
Tim
>> Edited by TT Tim on Monday 19th December 08:17
I'm sure if I went out now, even on a straight road & booted it, third gear at 3.5k revs would definately throw the back out.
In the dry, the back end fish tails, but in this weather, I'm confident one side would let go & stay like it.
Coming off the revs would make it snap the other way, the alternative of feathering the throttle might save you on a race track or runway but not a single lane carriage way & doubtful on a dual carriageway.
I think anyone who's had a few RWD powerful, light cars or has had driver training / track day / racing experience may know when it's about to happen, but I don't.
I don't boot it in this weather due to lack of skills.
In the dry, the back end fish tails, but in this weather, I'm confident one side would let go & stay like it.
Coming off the revs would make it snap the other way, the alternative of feathering the throttle might save you on a race track or runway but not a single lane carriage way & doubtful on a dual carriageway.
I think anyone who's had a few RWD powerful, light cars or has had driver training / track day / racing experience may know when it's about to happen, but I don't.
I don't boot it in this weather due to lack of skills.
Julian,
The back end will fish tail if you put the power down when the road surface is not A1. As you will read from most threads the spin is usually before or after a roundabout or corner. The reason tends to be diesel oil spillage making the surface like ice on one rear wheel.
Added to that if you ever watch drag racing you will see those cars spin and fish tail and they have massive rear traction. I agree on a straight road that is perfect with no surface problems and with good tyres and the power is introduced correctly the chances of spinning are slim indeed and there could be other problems with the car which need looking at.
The back end will fish tail if you put the power down when the road surface is not A1. As you will read from most threads the spin is usually before or after a roundabout or corner. The reason tends to be diesel oil spillage making the surface like ice on one rear wheel.
Added to that if you ever watch drag racing you will see those cars spin and fish tail and they have massive rear traction. I agree on a straight road that is perfect with no surface problems and with good tyres and the power is introduced correctly the chances of spinning are slim indeed and there could be other problems with the car which need looking at.
RUSSELLM said:
I'm sure if I went out now, even on a straight road & booted it, third gear at 3.5k revs would definately throw the back out.
In the dry, the back end fish tails, but in this weather, I'm confident one side would let go & stay like it.
Coming off the revs would make it snap the other way, the alternative of feathering the throttle might save you on a race track or runway but not a single lane carriage way & doubtful on a dual carriageway.
I think anyone who's had a few RWD powerful, light cars or has had driver training / track day / racing experience may know when it's about to happen, but I don't.
I don't boot it in this weather due to lack of skills.
Hang on, whats the mechanism of booting it and the rear suddenly swinging to one side? The diff will not let one wheel be at vastly different revs to the other, and even if it did one wheel giving traction and one wheel lost will not suddenly throw the back of your car round, unless possibly your car tracking is so far out it drive like a crab?
Have you noticed that when this happens, it kicks one way first? It's just the way the diffs are set. I think its called a 'turning moment' (might be wrong about that, can't quite remember!)
When I had my moment I was being very brutal with the throttle application. I was at about 90mph in third and thought that it would be fine to floor it. I caught it fairly quickly by comong off the throttle by about 50% and a little bit of steering input. I'm sure those SO3's don't help but the rest of it is just the car.
Julian, I'm sure your set-up probably cancels alot of this out as your dampers probably react to the 'twisting' and don't transfer it to the wheels.
You are correct TT Tim, I'm used to RWD. My first car was an MGBGT and I've had various other classics in the 13 years I've been driving. The Dolomite Sprint that I race needs to drift a bit through the corners to get quicker times. It's about 2/3rds the power to weight of the Cerbie so isn't quite so savage.
Scott
>> Edited by purpleheadedcerb on Monday 19th December 08:51
When I had my moment I was being very brutal with the throttle application. I was at about 90mph in third and thought that it would be fine to floor it. I caught it fairly quickly by comong off the throttle by about 50% and a little bit of steering input. I'm sure those SO3's don't help but the rest of it is just the car.
Julian, I'm sure your set-up probably cancels alot of this out as your dampers probably react to the 'twisting' and don't transfer it to the wheels.
You are correct TT Tim, I'm used to RWD. My first car was an MGBGT and I've had various other classics in the 13 years I've been driving. The Dolomite Sprint that I race needs to drift a bit through the corners to get quicker times. It's about 2/3rds the power to weight of the Cerbie so isn't quite so savage.
Scott
>> Edited by purpleheadedcerb on Monday 19th December 08:51
Try adding turbos to this equasion! I learnt my lesson very early on in 300zx ownership when I gave it some wellie on a back road, the turbos spooled up and I went fishtailing down a country road like a Chav on Acid! Scared the crap out of me - now have switchable Racelogic TC in the Zed 
In an ideal world, the back won't try and overtake the front, but there are so many factors that come into play that that situation is rarely achieved, different weight balance front and rear, road conditions, direction of car, etc. etc. I've always had RWD cars, but as I get older I do realise that there are a huge number of drivers on the roads who have no idea at how to adapt their driving to RWD.
Tim
In an ideal world, the back won't try and overtake the front, but there are so many factors that come into play that that situation is rarely achieved, different weight balance front and rear, road conditions, direction of car, etc. etc. I've always had RWD cars, but as I get older I do realise that there are a huge number of drivers on the roads who have no idea at how to adapt their driving to RWD.
Tim
purpleheadedcerb said:
You are correct TT Tim, I'm used to RWD. My first car was an MGBGT and I've had various other classics in the 13 years I've been driving. The Dolomite Sprint that I race needs to drift a bit through the corners to get quicker times. It's about 2/3rds the power to weight of the Cerbie so isn't quite so savage.]
<thread hijack>
Good man, my first car was a Triumph Spitfire. Even took my driving test in it.
Tim
</thread hijack>
bilton_d said:
i can guarantee they do .... especially after i wrote off my 4.5. Its the only time in 4 years of ownership it snapped away, on a straight road and not heavy acceleration.
As a matter of interest, was it a Hydratrac diff? I know people do have differing opinions of the unit, some saying its characteristics can be unpredictable.
Tim
Unfortunate bilton, and in your circumstance I don't think you could do anything because the car was toast after the impact 
But the original poster here has a car which suddenly bites for no good reason and is still driving it. I suppose the reason I highlight it is that this car is a potential accident waiting to happen and I don't think it has to be this way.
If you read a couple of previous threads on here I have been critisized for admitting that on a normal road I let the back end of my car go once or twice a journey to try and keep myself trained as to what to do if it happens for real.
When I'm doing that I'm obviously provoking it in safe circumstances for the benefit of the one time it will happen in dangerous circumstances.
I've tweaked (well adjusted in a blind fashion) my settings but I have never had the back end of the car swing round under hard acceleration when the rear loses traction under any settings. If I do it the rear loses grip but the front maintains direction. The car will slowly fishtail with the characteristic pattering noise at the back, which is accepted for a car with less grip than the rear, but for the rear to overtake the front is needs more grip than the front not less.
I don't think this sort of behaviour of the car should be accepted as normal on this forum without looking for a problem. I reiterate I would sell my car if it did this to me and I couldn't find a reason why, and I'm not sure why you all wouldn't?
But the original poster here has a car which suddenly bites for no good reason and is still driving it. I suppose the reason I highlight it is that this car is a potential accident waiting to happen and I don't think it has to be this way.
If you read a couple of previous threads on here I have been critisized for admitting that on a normal road I let the back end of my car go once or twice a journey to try and keep myself trained as to what to do if it happens for real.
When I'm doing that I'm obviously provoking it in safe circumstances for the benefit of the one time it will happen in dangerous circumstances.
I've tweaked (well adjusted in a blind fashion
) my settings but I have never had the back end of the car swing round under hard acceleration when the rear loses traction under any settings. If I do it the rear loses grip but the front maintains direction. The car will slowly fishtail with the characteristic pattering noise at the back, which is accepted for a car with less grip than the rear, but for the rear to overtake the front is needs more grip than the front not less. I don't think this sort of behaviour of the car should be accepted as normal on this forum without looking for a problem. I reiterate I would sell my car if it did this to me and I couldn't find a reason why, and I'm not sure why you all wouldn't?
Julian64 said:
Hang on, whats the mechanism of booting it and the rear suddenly swinging to one side? The diff will not let one wheel be at vastly different revs to the other, and even if it did one wheel giving traction and one wheel lost will not suddenly throw the back of your car round, unless possibly your car tracking is so far out it drive like a crab?
Hi Julian, I'd have thought that one rear wheel spinning & one wheel driving would have the effect of forcing one side of the car further forward than the other.
It might be that my car's not set up right, but if I boot it & it's greasy the diff has little to no effect.
In the dry it works perfectly.
TO be fair mine happened in a straight line and I just hit a massive amount of water at 60mph, and the rears were just legal.
I think even if I were in a regular car I would still have had some sort of a spin. Otherwise I have never come close to ever spinning the Cerbera, just when I want to it. On the whole she is a very predictable car.
I think even if I were in a regular car I would still have had some sort of a spin. Otherwise I have never come close to ever spinning the Cerbera, just when I want to it. On the whole she is a very predictable car.
Extra 300 Driver said:
TO be fair mine happened in a straight line and I just hit a massive amount of water at 60mph, and the rears were just legal.
I think even if I were in a regular car I would still have had some sort of a spin. Otherwise I have never come close to ever spinning the Cerbera, just when I want to it. On the whole she is a very predictable car.
Well you see that makes sense to me aquaplanning the front. The Cerb IS a predicatble car, its not a deathtrap waiting to spring on you, or at least not that I know. So is the poor guy at the start of this thread never going to boot the car again just in case?
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