Prosecute 'massage parlour' rapists

[Jaglover]

Controversial to say the least

I can't help thinking that Feminists and their supporters in the Labour party are using the issue of trafficked women as a weapon to end 'exploitation' as they would term prostitution.

Why is the first instinct of a Labour politician always to ban something or criminalise people?

DenisMacShane said:

We learnt this week that the Government is planning a crackdown on the vicious gangs that bring thousands of young women to Britain and force them to become prostitutes. That is good news - for, make no mistake about it, this is a desperate problem. If there is one smug phrase I never want to hear again, it is "the oldest profession". British massage parlours have become a vital link in the chain of international crime. We are facing a new slave trade, whose victims are tortured, terrified East European girls rather than Africans. And the trade will keep growing, despite media exposure, until we find our William Wilberforce. The number of men paying for sex in this country has doubled in the past decade. No fewer than 4,000 massage parlours - the modern euphemism for brothels - ply for trade. Books such as Belle de Jour and laddish accounts of paid-for sex in magazines glamorise the modern growth of prostitution; but for many young women who think they are coming to Britain to work as waitresses, au pairs or cleaners, the reality is very different. At the same time, more than two-thirds of British girls who become prostitutes do so before they are 18, and half have suffered sex abuse at home before being taken up by pimps. Nine of out 10 say they want to quit the "profession", which is inextricably linked to other criminality, such as drugs and money-laundering. We should welcome the fact that exemplary sentences have been handed out to Albanian, Lithuanian and Croatian pimps. But trying to interfere with the supply side will not stop the international sex-slave industry sinking deeper and deeper roots in Britain. We need to tackle the demand for sex slaves - and that is where the Government can help. Before Christmas, Home Office minister Tony McNulty told me in the Commons that a man who has sex with one of these beaten, terrified women can and should be charged with rape. He is quite right. Rape is a criminal act, and having sex with a woman who has been intimidated into having sex, even for payment, is nothing other than rape. Mr McNulty's brave statement now needs to be converted into action by the police and the Crown Prosecution Service. The high-profile raid on a Birmingham massage parlour a few weeks ago resulted in the women being arrested but the men being let off. We need to reverse priorities. The men should be charged with rape and the women enlisted to help the police as witnesses and informers on the sex-trafficking networks. No doubt the police and CPS will moan about the difficulty of securing convictions - but if Parliament agrees that massage-parlour sex with a beaten woman is rape, then it is up to the executive authorities of law, order and justice to move on its will. Something else Britain should do is sign the convention on trafficked women agreed by the 46 member states of the Council of Europe. This has nothing to do with the EU and is an effort to offer protection to trafficked sex slaves by treating them as victims, not criminals or accomplices in crime. In essence, the convention allows any woman to be protected and sheltered once she escapes from her slave owners. The idea is that, once freed of fear, she can help the police and, with the assistance of British embassies, return home and tell her sisters and friends not to believe the gangsters' lies. Home Office jobsworths are resisting the convention on the grounds that it might give a reason for some of these sex slaves to believe they can stay in Britain rather than be expelled. On the contrary: signing the convention would send a signal to the pimps that their slaves can win freedom in a Britain determined to tackle this scourge. We could go further. Kerb-crawling used to be common in many poor suburbs. It was stopped by local residents taking photographs of car number plates and the police questioning the men and suggesting that they might be visited at home to explain why they were picking up prostitutes. Photographing men going into massage parlours or identity checks on them by police or local authority health-and-safety raids would send a strong message of discouragement. Given that the rise in sexually transmitted diseases parallels the rise in massage parlours, there is a legitimate public health interest in slowing down the new industry. After all, Al Capone was caught for fiddling taxes, not for the St Valentine's Day massacre. A crackdown and regular inspections by Inland Revenue or workplace safety inspectors on 4,000 massage parlours would have a salutary impact. Ultimately, we might go as far as Sweden, where it is no crime to be a prostitute but it is illegal to pay for sex. Men who are caught with their pants down and their wallets open are sent to special education centres to meet former sex slaves and have explained to them the consequences of paying for sex with such people. As a result, the number of sex slaves trafficked into Sweden has dropped dramatically, compared with an estimated 15,000 working in Finland. The Swedish measure is one of the most popular the government has brought in. Now it is up to Tony Blair and David Cameron to launch their own political contest to tackle the demand side of this revolting industry. It is tricky territory, and the risk of being accused of hypocrisy is high; but there comes a point at which even the most liberal society must assert standards of morality. William Wilberforce served the world by taking action against the 19th-century slave trade. The first jail sentence for rape in a massage parlour will be the modern equivalent of the first slave ship boarded by the Royal Navy.

Dennis MacShane is Labour MP for Rotherham

[Plotloss]

Alternatively, do what any decent right thinking person would and legalise and licence it thus removing the corruption and exploitation driven by cash greed...

The marxists could tax it too, which should appeal to them at least.

[Plotloss]

There is nothing to suggest that a black market would arise out of a legalised supply.

Theres no point, theres bigger margins in other illegal activity.

[tinman0]

what annoys me about this is that its another area where all we need is tough law and order.

for instance, the slave traders should be sent down for a long time. lets face it, its a form of abduction and its certainly false imprisonment. if you control 20 "sex-slaves", then its 5 years for false imprisonment for each one, and 5 years for living off the immoral earnings of each one. giving you a nice round total of 200 years behind bars.

but the labour way of things is to create yet more laws.

[Plotloss]

But why does it need to be enforced at all?

Man or woman wants sex, doesnt have the ability/social skill/looks to get it naturally and therefore willingly pays for it.

If the prostitute is willing and working without duress who is that hurting exactly?

Again, the Dutch have the lead...

[Marki]

Plotloss said:

Again, the Dutch have the lead...

as they do in most things Matt

[Plotloss]

Gazboy said:

Plotloss said: There is nothing to suggest that a black market would arise out of a legalised supply. Theres no point, theres bigger margins in other illegal activity. Like people filling transits full of booze and smokes 'over there' to sell for profit 'over here'?

Thats as a result of an unrealistic and downright oppressive taxation being placed on said goods.

Keep the cost fair and there will be no black market, just as there isnt in Holland.

You make the point of sale legal and you ramp up the prosecution terms for pimping, it can be seen to work all over the world.

[Twincam16]

Plotloss said:

Alternatively, do what any decent right thinking person would and legalise and licence it thus removing the corruption and exploitation driven by cash greed... The marxists could tax it too, which should appeal to them at least.

Possibly, but I can actually see where she is coming from (not that I agree with her plans per se).

Again, the problem with prostitution of this sort is with pimps, in the same way that the problem with drugs is with drug dealers. The problem is a certain class of ruthless, violent person with no care for human life or dignity other than its commercial gain.

And yes, you can legalise drugs and prostitution but what are you going to do with these sorts of people? Tell them politely to find another job? They have no skills other than those of high criminality and they have profited obscenely from it too. The only way to tackle any of the problems surrounding the likes of drugs and prostitution is to find some way to tackle the international crime lords first. If you don't, you essentially legalise their bastardly attitudes as well.

Immediate and sudden legalisation of any of these things would be like slapping a skin-coloured plaster on an incredibly septic wound and hope you can wipe away the pus as it seeps out around the edges. I know you've put a lot of thought into your legalisation ideas Plotloss, but they do seem like rather simplistic quick fixes at times.

[Plotloss]

Its not a quick fix in the slightest, its a model than can be seen to work in Holland on both soft drugs and prostitution.

Prohibition creates a lot more problems than it solves, that is an absolute given throughout history.

[Plotloss]

Gazboy said:

Plotloss said: If the prostitute is willing and working without duress who is that hurting exactly? But how do you know?????

Its a licenced trade, they have a choice.

Hookers in Holland rent their bed space, thats an investment because the rewards are great.

In the UK we have a law that states you can hire someones time but not their body. This is how escorts are legal. Solicit for that business and you are a prostitute and therefore foul of the law. Any fool can see how ridiculous that is.

[Twincam16]

Plotloss said:

But why does it need to be enforced at all? Man or woman wants sex, doesnt have the ability/social skill/looks to get it naturally and therefore willingly pays for it. If the prostitute is willing and working without duress who is that hurting exactly? Again, the Dutch have the lead...

But the Dutch have the culture that permitted such effectiveness to evolve. And are you telling me that Amsterdam smells of roses? (or tulips, whatever?) - no, it's the centre for as much organised crime as Sicily. The Dutch have just as many problems as they have 'solutions'.

I think you have a rather idealised view of Holland, sorry.

[Jaglover]

Plotloss said:

Its not a quick fix in the slightest, its a model than can be seen to work in Holland on both soft drugs and prostitution. Prohibition creates a lot more problems than it solves, that is an absolute given throughout history.

Exactly

Any government should examine carefully the limits it places on individual freedom. It should intervene only when it is necessary to protect people from harm not to register 'moral' disapproval.

If you prohibit adults from participating in activities which do not harm another then you are creating more problems than you solve.

[hugoagogo]

Plotloss said:

But why does it need to be enforced at all? Man or woman wants sex, doesnt have the ability/social skill/looks to get it naturally and therefore willingly pays for it. If the prostitute is willing and working without duress who is that hurting exactly? Again, the Dutch have the lead...

and that's the big 'if'

i have no problem with legalising prostitution (although legal places are still nasty and sleazy - there's a huge brothel in the centre of düsseldorf where i live) this scummy slavery/pimping should be wiped out, if that means intimidating the customers away, then so be it

if any customer knows or suspects that the girl is there under duress, bollox to him, he IS a rapist

[Jaglover]

hugoagogo said:

and that's the big 'if' i have no problem with legalising prostitution (although legal places are still nasty and sleazy - there's a huge brothel in the centre of düsseldorf where i live) this scummy slavery/pimping should be wiped out, if that means intimidating the customers away, then so be it if any customer knows or suspects that the girl is there under duress, bollox to him, he IS a rapist

Slavery/pimping can only be wiped out by the 'nasty and sleazy' legal places. Prostitution will always be with us, if you want to ensure that there are no underage and coerced women working as prostitutes then a legal outlet is needed for the 'trade'.

[Jaglover]

Gazboy said:

Could you imagine how much tax would be stamped on it! If a packet of deathsticks cost a fiver- what's the tax going to be for sinking your beaver lever into a hooker- and would you pay VAT on it too? How much is Optimax- £1.00 a litre? How much of that is tax? 86pence or there-abouts? If some dude has a tanker full of it that he's selling for 25p a litre he's still making a profit, and I bet people would buy it.

It should be taxed as any other 'service' Vat if turnover is above £60K and income tax payable on the profits.

[Twincam16]

Also, and I don't want to sound like a thinkofthechildrenist here, but we're living in an age of 'hooker chic' in music videos where celebrities parade their fd-up love-lives in front of impressionable kids for all to see. Porn's everywhere, cheap, loveless sex is everywhere, and a lot of confused and misguided young girls are drawn into it all and left mentally scarred, despite everything appearing above-board and legal if conditions permit.

Tell me, Plotloss - if you had a teenage daughter (you may do, I don't know), how would you feel if she decided getting banged by ugly, lonely old men for a living was the career for her? Would you say 'go ahead', or take her to a psychiatrist?

[hugoagogo]

Jaglover said:

hugoagogo said: i have no problem with legalising prostitution (although legal places are still nasty and sleazy - there's a huge brothel in the centre of düsseldorf where i live) Slavery/pimping can only be wiped out by the 'nasty and sleazy' legal places.

i know, that's what i said. neccessary evil i suppose, some men need it, some women probably want to do it

i would be lovely to imagine hookers and their customers as shown in 'pretty woman' but the reality is somewhat less appealing

[Plotloss]

Twincam16 said:

Plotloss said: But why does it need to be enforced at all? Man or woman wants sex, doesnt have the ability/social skill/looks to get it naturally and therefore willingly pays for it. If the prostitute is willing and working without duress who is that hurting exactly? Again, the Dutch have the lead... But the Dutch have the culture that permitted such effectiveness to evolve. And are you telling me that Amsterdam smells of roses? (or tulips, whatever?) - no, it's the centre for as much organised crime as Sicily. The Dutch have just as many problems as they have 'solutions'. I think you have a rather idealised view of Holland, sorry.

Having spent a long time in Holland I know that its not a country without its issues.

They however have a significantly smaller problem with drug use amongst the under 18's than we do. They have a smaller number of regular drug users than we do. They have a significantly smaller problem with hard drugs than we do. They have no organised illegal prostitution.

If you demonise something you make it attractive, for that is the way of the world.

Prohibition in all its forms can be shown by just about any period in history to be a bad idea. Trust people to make the right decision and the vast majority of the time, they will.

[Jaglover]

Twincam16 said:

And yes, you can legalise drugs and prostitution but what are you going to do with these sorts of people? Tell them politely to find another job? They have no skills other than those of high criminality and they have profited obscenely from it too. The only way to tackle any of the problems surrounding the likes of drugs and prostitution is to find some way to tackle the international crime lords first. If you don't, you essentially legalise their bastardly attitudes as well. Immediate and sudden legalisation of any of these things would be like slapping a skin-coloured plaster on an incredibly septic wound and hope you can wipe away the pus as it seeps out around the edges. I know you've put a lot of thought into your legalisation ideas Plotloss, but they do seem like rather simplistic quick fixes at times.

It is the prohibiting of activities which do not harm anyone (aside from the user possibly) which has created the power of such people.

Organised crime was very powerful in America in the age of prohibition precisely because the profits available were so large.

[Twincam16]

Plotloss said:

Having spent a long time in Holland I know that its not a country without its issues. They however have a significantly smaller problem with drug use amongst the under 18's than we do. They have a smaller number of regular drug users than we do. They have a significantly smaller problem with hard drugs than we do. They have no organised illegal prostitution.

Really? Evidence? Or is it just so far underground that it goes on undetected?

Also, I would very much like to see some Dutch medical evidence relating to the mental state of the people involved in all these jolly, above-board 'occupations' involving drugs and sex. Call me a backwards moraliser if you like, but I think all this vice (and I have absolutely no qualms about using that word) affects the moral heart of a city, nation, or world far deeper that anyone who proclaims themself to be a liberal reformer would ever let on.