Can’t make a decision about which tuner.
Discussion
Somebody help me here, I really can’t make a decision.
98 Griff 500 42k, think the engine is unmodified. It has always worked, ticks over nicely and seems reasonably quick, but ; Other Griffs I have driven seem to deliver just a bit more punch and rev more freely. One in particular with a 404 cam absolutely flew ( was horrible round town though). I can’t describe the difference other than mine seems to have something lacking. Now, in addition it has developed a slightly “cammy” sound as well. It is not completely flat and it is definitely quicker than the V8s was, I just feel it could be a bit better. Last year a well known West Sussex tuner declined to run it on his rolling road because he felt it was pinking, suggesting it was under fuelled yet when I looked, all the plugs are soot black. The suggestion to explain this was that the fuel is getting in but not being cleanly burnt ( the injectors are not atomising corrctly)
So the options are :
1)Strip and inspect the top end myself, get a cam kit, injectors, trumpets. Rebuild and take it along for re mapping.
2)Take it to the West Sussex tuner and pay him a lot of money to do the above.
3)Take it to a popular midlands tuner who lifts out the engine, rebuilds with new cam and map.
4)Stop moaning and Leave it as it is.
5)Swap it in for a Tuscan or T350
Your opinions would be appreciated.
In reality if I do the job myself (I have done engine work before) I know it will take a lot longer than the ideal because of other commitments. The full engine out option seems a waste if just the top end needs freshening and I am a bit frightened of handing over lots of cash and feeling a bit ripped off at the end if it is not a lot better. Also I am terrified of owning a speed six. I need to crack on and make a decision so the car is all fettled for the Hill climb season in April.
98 Griff 500 42k, think the engine is unmodified. It has always worked, ticks over nicely and seems reasonably quick, but ; Other Griffs I have driven seem to deliver just a bit more punch and rev more freely. One in particular with a 404 cam absolutely flew ( was horrible round town though). I can’t describe the difference other than mine seems to have something lacking. Now, in addition it has developed a slightly “cammy” sound as well. It is not completely flat and it is definitely quicker than the V8s was, I just feel it could be a bit better. Last year a well known West Sussex tuner declined to run it on his rolling road because he felt it was pinking, suggesting it was under fuelled yet when I looked, all the plugs are soot black. The suggestion to explain this was that the fuel is getting in but not being cleanly burnt ( the injectors are not atomising corrctly)
So the options are :
1)Strip and inspect the top end myself, get a cam kit, injectors, trumpets. Rebuild and take it along for re mapping.
2)Take it to the West Sussex tuner and pay him a lot of money to do the above.
3)Take it to a popular midlands tuner who lifts out the engine, rebuilds with new cam and map.
4)Stop moaning and Leave it as it is.
5)Swap it in for a Tuscan or T350
Your opinions would be appreciated.
In reality if I do the job myself (I have done engine work before) I know it will take a lot longer than the ideal because of other commitments. The full engine out option seems a waste if just the top end needs freshening and I am a bit frightened of handing over lots of cash and feeling a bit ripped off at the end if it is not a lot better. Also I am terrified of owning a speed six. I need to crack on and make a decision so the car is all fettled for the Hill climb season in April.
steve-v8s said:
Somebody help me here, I really can’t make a decision.
Last year a well known West Sussex tuner declined to run it on his rolling road because he felt it was pinking, suggesting it was under fuelled yet when I looked, all the plugs are soot black. The suggestion to explain this was that the fuel is getting in but not being cleanly burnt ( the injectors are not atomising corrctly)
It may have been pinking but if so the fuel would have been burned in the process imo. More likely to have had a misfire (dudd coil?)or been to rich then pinking. I can understand the tuner having reservations though. Have you had it on a diagnostic machine?
Boosted.
The coil issue was suggested before so I replaced all the plugs, the coil and the HT leads and after about 1500 miles they are all black again. The CO figure just meets MOT requirements so it is certainly not lean at idle. All the plugs are sooty I don’t think all the pots would be misfiring.
How fast can I afford to go ? Good question, I can afford to pay for some work, and could also afford to swap it in for a Tuscan but don’t want to waste my money.
How fast can I afford to go ? Good question, I can afford to pay for some work, and could also afford to swap it in for a Tuscan but don’t want to waste my money.
steve-v8s said:
The coil issue was suggested before so I replaced all the plugs, the coil and the HT leads and after about 1500 miles they are all black again. The CO figure just meets MOT requirements so it is certainly not lean at idle. All the plugs are sooty I don’t think all the pots would be misfiring.
.
Thing is, until it's been properly diagnosed you don't know what the fault is and it will still be there if you mod the engine. So it could be an ignition fault or fuel fault. It seems to effect all cylinders so could be just one component. Fuel regulator?
Engine work needs sorting now as april is in reality around the corner.
Boosted.
Steve,
sort the Griff, and enjoy it!
The lustre has been taken off by the problem, sort it and the shine will return.
with a Griff on song, snapping forward on the throttle and looking & sounding like they do, you won't regret it. and you won't has the spectre of the SP6 chocolate fingers knawing away at the back of your mind.
Perfectly natural to get the "winter blues"
so long as the bottom end is sound, and the bleed down figures are good...go for it. it'll be easier to sell anyway! (tho i bet you'll feel different when its sorted)
andy
monster
sort the Griff, and enjoy it!
The lustre has been taken off by the problem, sort it and the shine will return.
with a Griff on song, snapping forward on the throttle and looking & sounding like they do, you won't regret it. and you won't has the spectre of the SP6 chocolate fingers knawing away at the back of your mind.
Perfectly natural to get the "winter blues"
so long as the bottom end is sound, and the bleed down figures are good...go for it. it'll be easier to sell anyway! (tho i bet you'll feel different when its sorted)
andy
monster
My timing chain was pretty shot, though the sprocket is not nearly as worn as Quinny's. There was about 3/4 inch of play mid point of the chain - which is quite a lot considering the chain run is only about 4 inches. I'd imagine that would allow for a few degrees of variation in timing. I was quite surprised at this given the low mileage (27k).
I have drilled a couple of holes in the block to allow drainage from the valley area into the timing cover to improve lubrication in this area (I'm fitting a new duplex chain and sprockets obviously). Lubrication to the timing chain and dizzy drive is a known achilles heel in this engine.
I have drilled a couple of holes in the block to allow drainage from the valley area into the timing cover to improve lubrication in this area (I'm fitting a new duplex chain and sprockets obviously). Lubrication to the timing chain and dizzy drive is a known achilles heel in this engine.
victormeldrew said:
I have drilled a couple of holes in the block to allow drainage from the valley area into the timing cover to improve lubrication in this area (I'm fitting a new duplex chain and sprockets obviously). Lubrication to the timing chain and dizzy drive is a known achilles heel in this engine.
And this is the standard fix for it too. I'm a little surprised people arnt doing this as standard to all engines undergoing a rebuild.
I would go with freshening up the top end and then a re-map, when the summer comes with a sorted car you will be glad you didnt go for the T350 tin top.
Option 1 
Your obviously the type who could do this yourself,so why not save yourself some dosh and have the satisfaction as well?Whilst saving,you could also decide on cam type,a fully ported manifold,trumpets,plenum etc.Then instead of the normal route of mapping you could have the MS system fitted and mapped at Trackcar,and have the ignition mapped into the bargain to go with it(cheaper and much better).
All in all,you could save a lot and have a much improved car this way
I've found modding the griff so much more enjoyable than running a S6 thats for sure!
Your obviously the type who could do this yourself,so why not save yourself some dosh and have the satisfaction as well?Whilst saving,you could also decide on cam type,a fully ported manifold,trumpets,plenum etc.Then instead of the normal route of mapping you could have the MS system fitted and mapped at Trackcar,and have the ignition mapped into the bargain to go with it(cheaper and much better).
All in all,you could save a lot and have a much improved car this way
I've found modding the griff so much more enjoyable than running a S6 thats for sure!
How many routes have you explored so far Steve? just the ones mentioned in your first post?
seems what you really want is a car that revs well to the top end of the rev range and makes more power? a cam would do that, it's fundamental to changing the shape of the power delivery.
you'd need 1k to fit a cam properly, i'd recommend speaking to v8developments/Rob (v8racing) about that, don't automatically assume any old local tuner/service agent can fit a RV8 cam properly..
Then you'd need some trumpets and a remap, but make sure you budget for mapped ignition as that really makes a breathing-limited engine produce a lot more right at the top end where you need to start adding the advance back in again. I've heard a lot of stories of high capacity V8s not making the hp up top because they're stuck on mechanical advance.
seems what you really want is a car that revs well to the top end of the rev range and makes more power? a cam would do that, it's fundamental to changing the shape of the power delivery.
you'd need 1k to fit a cam properly, i'd recommend speaking to v8developments/Rob (v8racing) about that, don't automatically assume any old local tuner/service agent can fit a RV8 cam properly..
Then you'd need some trumpets and a remap, but make sure you budget for mapped ignition as that really makes a breathing-limited engine produce a lot more right at the top end where you need to start adding the advance back in again. I've heard a lot of stories of high capacity V8s not making the hp up top because they're stuck on mechanical advance.
jonnyb said:
I have drilled a couple of holes in the block to allow drainage from the valley area into the timing cover to improve lubrication in this area (I'm fitting a new duplex chain and sprockets obviously). Lubrication to the timing chain and dizzy drive is a known achilles heel in this engine.
And this is the standard fix for it too. I'm a little surprised people arnt doing this as standard to all engines undergoing a rebuild.
I believe it only applies to pre-serp engines, dizzy drive in serp engines is no longer from the cam. I asked about the extra oil feed and V8D said no point.
Ian A.
steve-v8s said:
....Last year a well known West Sussex tuner declined to run it on his rolling road because he felt it was pinking, suggesting it was under fuelled yet when I looked, all the plugs are soot black....
I'm only commenting on this thread because I have nothing whatsoever to do with it (I personally consider it totally unethical to trawl for business where anyone is discussing products or services that I provide). Hopefully this info will help, based on the experience of testing over 2,500 engines over 15 years.
An experienced rolling road operator would indeed be able to spot pinking/detonation, and would be very ill-advised to run the car hard on the rollers. I would expect that a good operator would KNOW it was pinking, rather than feel it was pinking. The combination of high engine load and speed with pinking is the best way to crack a piston.
The sooty spark plugs seen after normal driving, have absolutely no relevance whatsoever to full-load operation. The causes of pinking are many and varied, and further investigation would be wise. So far, I have only seen two healthy standard 500 engines that were not underfuelled on full load. Weak mixture is a common cause of pinking, as is significant camshaft wear. Any oil entering the combustion chamber will lower the Octane rating of the mixture, further aggravating pinking.
If you want to know more about injector spray patterns and the effect on pinking, then please ask (or search for "bosch injector" in the various TVR-specific forums). However it is thoroughly established that poor atomization leads to large fuel droplets. Fuel droplets burn from the outside-in, so the bigger they are the slower they burn.
During some extensive dyno research, we have experimented with injectors producing different spray patterns and droplet sizes on a specific test engine. As you decrease the droplet size it produces quite large changes in the mixture (for the same fuel quantity delivered), and optimum ignition timing (quicker burn with a more homogeneous mixture).
On any motor, this means that if you increase the droplet size for one or two injectors, the apparent mixture in the chamber will weaken and the combustion process will slow down. It is quite possible to get pinking on only one or two cylinders in this case.
Basically you need to do some more tests! From what you have said so far, I cannot see any reason to doubt what you have heard from the rolling road establishment.
i am not backing mark up on this one but he absolutely right!! a supposed rv8 engine tuner came to me last year for dynoing some engines and just by turning the engine over by hand it felt wrong!! and mark was there! i flatteley refused to start the engine after he said everything was ok but i knew it wasnt so i checked the cam timing and it was 50 degress out!!!!!! if i think there is something wrong i would much rather say sorry cant do it as opposed to sorry mate just knackered your engine!!
I would certainly stick with the griff they can be an awsome and fun car once sorted, the 404 cam suits many people although like you say can be a bit lumpy around town mark irons out most of the drivabilty issues with it but to be be perfect really needs an aftermarket mapable ignition system to get the best out of it!
I would certainly stick with the griff they can be an awsome and fun car once sorted, the 404 cam suits many people although like you say can be a bit lumpy around town mark irons out most of the drivabilty issues with it but to be be perfect really needs an aftermarket mapable ignition system to get the best out of it!
Be carefull, All these names that appear to glitter are not gold, As the previous post said, It is best not to mess with things you are not sure of but cam timing should at least be double checked, No names but I have just had a griff in which has had injectors and a remap at great expense and been heavily rolling road tested and passed fully fit,It was then trailered to me for a new cam, Did I race against your dad V8 racing ?.
How is your dad,He didn,t half slap that marshalls post at combe in 89/90 ?. Hows ian doing,Last time I saw him he was in a 4wd outside our house on the outskirts of hinckley, waiting to be called in to sort out an armed raid on the local kwiksave. He couldn,t show us his toys in the boot.
Dads fine now he ended up in a comer for 2 weeks not something i wish to remember to be honest!! i am not just saying it you saw the car control he had!! it was traced down to a broken trackcontol arm so he had no steering!! we have a video that simon light gave to us that shows sparks apear from the n/s fron wheel before the accident! ian is now retired!!! they retire them young in the force!! do you still have much to do with mallory? since splitting with nat i havent been there in years hope your doing well
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