Potential Iraq conflict - opinions?
Discussion
Sorry if this is too O/T but I am genuinely interested to hear your points of view on this.
I ask because I have just read the new report on Iraq and its policies of torture etc. (available here but be warned is very grim reading www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/hrdossier.pdf )
I must admit that although I appreciate the true nature of war that here is a case for "regime change" regardless of what the UN inspectors find.
I ask because I have just read the new report on Iraq and its policies of torture etc. (available here but be warned is very grim reading www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/hrdossier.pdf )
I must admit that although I appreciate the true nature of war that here is a case for "regime change" regardless of what the UN inspectors find.
And what would a 'regime change' do for us or, for that matter, the Iraqis?
Sounds like overthrowing the leader of a Middle Eastern state and installing a Bush-picked puppet government would only serve to intensify anti-western feeling.
A rise in the number of terrorist attacks and a rise in the approval of such acts against the west amongst a lot of people in the Arab world who resent US intervention in their regional politics and so-called stability.
It'll cost shitloads of money too and at a time when it's not exactly in our interests with Gordon Brown borrowing money like it's going out of fashion and the world economy being right on it's arse.
I'm no pacifist but the objective of regime change is wildly dangerous and the timing is all wrong. No good will come of it.
Sounds like overthrowing the leader of a Middle Eastern state and installing a Bush-picked puppet government would only serve to intensify anti-western feeling.
A rise in the number of terrorist attacks and a rise in the approval of such acts against the west amongst a lot of people in the Arab world who resent US intervention in their regional politics and so-called stability.
It'll cost shitloads of money too and at a time when it's not exactly in our interests with Gordon Brown borrowing money like it's going out of fashion and the world economy being right on it's arse.
I'm no pacifist but the objective of regime change is wildly dangerous and the timing is all wrong. No good will come of it.
I'm no expert in history but it seems to me that over the many years, British people have been oppressed and treated as slaves many times over. What did we do to solve the problem? After taking a few years of cr*p, we had an uprising or assasinated someone. And if there wasn't anything to complain about, the English and Scottish had a bit of a barney, just so we kept in practise.
In countries such as Iraq, the citizens seem to be unable to stand up for themselves. Why is this? Surely there must be many more opressed than oppressors?
What I'm trying to say is why don't all these people join the rebel forces (middle eastern, not Star Wars) instead of getting on the first train to England and claiming asylum. I'd like to think I would, although faced with such atrocities I'd probably just hide in my tent with my 15 kids.
This is working on the premise that citizens of Iraq don't actually like Saddam, they just go around saying how great he is because if they don't, they might get shot.
Just my two pence.
Ian A.
>> Edited by IPAddis on Monday 2nd December 13:38
In countries such as Iraq, the citizens seem to be unable to stand up for themselves. Why is this? Surely there must be many more opressed than oppressors?
What I'm trying to say is why don't all these people join the rebel forces (middle eastern, not Star Wars) instead of getting on the first train to England and claiming asylum. I'd like to think I would, although faced with such atrocities I'd probably just hide in my tent with my 15 kids.
This is working on the premise that citizens of Iraq don't actually like Saddam, they just go around saying how great he is because if they don't, they might get shot.
Just my two pence.
Ian A.
>> Edited by IPAddis on Monday 2nd December 13:38
i think justifying a conflict in terms of a regime that is cruel to its own citizens is not likely to be a good idea.
Russia on the chetchens
China on the nepalese (and the chinese)
Burma
North Korea
Ethopia
Mozambique
etc etc etc
where and for what is a line in the sand drawn. I could make a case for the USA in its capital punishment for mentally handicapped people who have comitted murder... but I won't as it is a truer democracy in SOME ways.
Iraq specifically though obviously needs to be dealt with in some way to prevent a further destabilisation in the region - I know it isn't helpful to look back but really we should have supported the marsh arabs at the end of the 1992 conflict.
My guess is we should go for a ground war from the start -- not a bombing campaign...quicker and less costly to civilians - but more expensive in terms of the allied forces.
also might prevent saddam firing the oilfields again. something like operation market garden - only this time a little better planned. :; (ie put richard burton in charge not a lesser actor
Russia on the chetchens
China on the nepalese (and the chinese)
Burma
North Korea
Ethopia
Mozambique
etc etc etc
where and for what is a line in the sand drawn. I could make a case for the USA in its capital punishment for mentally handicapped people who have comitted murder... but I won't as it is a truer democracy in SOME ways.
Iraq specifically though obviously needs to be dealt with in some way to prevent a further destabilisation in the region - I know it isn't helpful to look back but really we should have supported the marsh arabs at the end of the 1992 conflict.
My guess is we should go for a ground war from the start -- not a bombing campaign...quicker and less costly to civilians - but more expensive in terms of the allied forces.
also might prevent saddam firing the oilfields again. something like operation market garden - only this time a little better planned. :; (ie put richard burton in charge not a lesser actor
funkydredd said: What about the human rights records in other countries? Are we going to invade them as well?
No but it's folly to ignore the propensity of psychopaths to strike out in a way wholly inconsistent with our over insulated western sensitivities.
Saddam is not just a despot - the region's full of them - he's quite unstable.
Maybe it'll take a mushroom cloud over Tel Aviv before everyone takes note?
Most correspondents note how leaders in the UAE and surrounding territories publicly support their 'Arab brother' but privately acknowledge he has to go.
For the yanks to take over would be a disaster, indeed but that shouldn't stop them piling on the pressure. Eventually, somebody within Iraq will slit the madman's throat and then, hopefully, a moderate leader will emerge.
It's grimly fascinating to see the mental terror that grips Iraq; but when will that somebody from within take the plunge?
I think this is how it will happen. It usually does.
>> Edited by derestrictor on Monday 2nd December 13:45
CarZee said: And what would a 'regime change' do for us or, for that matter, the Iraqis?
Sounds like overthrowing the leader of a Middle Eastern state and installing a Bush-picked puppet government would only serve to intensify anti-western feeling.
A rise in the number of terrorist attacks and a rise in the approval of such acts against the west amongst a lot of people in the Arab world who resent US intervention in their regional politics and so-called stability.
It'll cost shitloads of money too and at a time when it's not exactly in our interests with Gordon Brown borrowing money like it's going out of fashion and the world economy being right on it's arse.
I'm no pacifist but the objective of regime change is wildly dangerous and the timing is all wrong. No good will come of it.
I think you are possibly right about the potential to increase anti-western feelings in certain states. But I think that a regime change would benefit the Iraqi people by giving them a government they can choose without fear of death or torture and it would benefit us by giving us a potential ally in an uncertain part of the world - and, yes, I am not blind, would give us a potential friend with an awful lot of oil.
Which is the main reason for the UK and US to go to war - depends on who you talk to. Is it right to get a regime-change? In my opinion yes, regardless of reasons. Anything to get rid of an evil, evil regime.
I don't buy into the 'Saddam is unstable' bull. No doubting he is ruthless and a total bar steward. If you check on Saddam's history he, like most of his kind, has just been an opportunist. He committed his worst atrocities when the super powers were his friends because he knew he could get away with it. Now he knows he can't.
If he such a loon why the hell didn't he just use chemical weapons left right and centre during the Gulf and go down fighting?
If he such a loon why the hell didn't he just use chemical weapons left right and centre during the Gulf and go down fighting?
So why not get shirty with Zimbabwe, North Korea, Burmha and every other ropey regime?
mannginger said:Is it right to get a regime-change? In my opinion yes, regardless of reasons. Anything to get rid of an evil, evil regime.
This is about oil and American vengeance. Their long awaited September 11th catharsis. It's disingenuous to make out that Bush has honourable reasons for pursuing regime change or indeed military intervention of any sort. Do you think Bush gives a crap about how SH treats the Kurds?
I think that before George Bush leads us into an unwinnable war because his dad couldn't finish it off 10 years or so ago, he needs to get his own house in order, i.e. the Israelis. They are as bad as almost any other state there is but because American-Israelis fund most of the country he won't do anything. This will only cause more instability because the West is interfering with Arab culture and it's not wanted. Sort out the Palestinian problem and this will ease the whole west v arab problem at least a little.
funkydredd said: I don't buy into the 'Saddam is unstable' bull...If he's such a loon why the hell didn't he just use chemical weapons left right and centre during the Gulf and go down fighting?
Who said he didn't?
Perhaps his inability to effectively deliver such weaponary combined with allied defences - all conveniently mixed up with a tad of military disinformation - are what make you think this.
Surely the way he started firing Scuds at Israel demonstrated precisely how deranged he is?
Try telling the families of all the Iranians from 1980-88 that he's a strict observer of The Geneva Convention. Not to mention his own Kurdish victims.
Does the guy have to mustard gas 5,000 paras, live on Sky News do to demonstrate his status as King Loon?
Hatter, mad as.
Try telling the families of all the Iranians from 1980-88 that he's a strict observer of The Geneva Convention. Not to mention his own Kurdish victims.
Read what I said again. He got away with this because the superpowers were his friends. At the time the Americans were trying their best to keep this is all quiet and carry on relations with Hussein.
As long as the US takes the hypocritical line of banging on about Iraq's breach of UN resolutions whilst ignoring Israel’s breach of those passed against herself and her continuing daily breaches of human rights in the occupied territories then this is going to achieve nothing. They have to sort the Palestinian issue out first and IMHO that means withdrawing US backing for Israel since they're the cause of the problem.
In Iraq the US will do their usual thing of going in all guns blazing, bomb the crap out of the place and then f**k off and leave the clearing up to UN peace keepers. Probably some nutter will supersede SH or the place will descend into factional fighting and they may well set off coups and uprisings in neighbouring states, particularly Saudi.
In Iraq the US will do their usual thing of going in all guns blazing, bomb the crap out of the place and then f**k off and leave the clearing up to UN peace keepers. Probably some nutter will supersede SH or the place will descend into factional fighting and they may well set off coups and uprisings in neighbouring states, particularly Saudi.
Iraq is a weak country with a disliked and unpopular leader. It has no allies, a devastated infrastructure and obsolete command control and military hardware.
It _may_ have some banned chemical/biological weapons capability.
Give me 1 reason why the US won't take advantage of this situation to become custodian of the worlds 2nd largest set of verified oil reserves.
It's not pretty, it's not nice, it's not just, it's not right, but it is law of the jungle and thats the way international politics usually work out....
It _may_ have some banned chemical/biological weapons capability.
Give me 1 reason why the US won't take advantage of this situation to become custodian of the worlds 2nd largest set of verified oil reserves.
It's not pretty, it's not nice, it's not just, it's not right, but it is law of the jungle and thats the way international politics usually work out....
CarZee said:
This is about oil and American vengeance. Their long awaited September 11th catharsis. It's disingenuous to make out that Bush has honourable reasons for pursuing regime change or indeed military intervention of any sort. Do you think Bush gives a crap about how SH treats the Kurds?
Bush? - probably not, (although maybe he's just trying to correct a wrong of his Father's ie: not pushing to Baghdad and leaving the Kurds, after promising them help for an uprising)
But his advisors? God I hope so - America may be wanting to lash out at someone, but I like to think that US advisors see at least some good for the Iraqi people coming from any future conflict
The thing about old Sadman Insane, is quite simply, he cant be trusted.
He cant be bargained with, he cant therefore remain where he is.
Emotive talk of "iraqi citizens" being bombed into submission, is frankly a preposterous idea.
We do not go out of our way willy nilly dropping ordnance left right and centre on population centres.
In fact we do our utmost to prevent such occurances.
Old Saddy on the other hand has no such morality about using whatever he can to quell any dissent, and he seems to relish the idea that he can wield such terror.
There seems to be a section of society that have only their own point of view on Saddam, and think that having an anti-war protest is the right thing to do.
Why are they not having an anti Saddam protest?
Thats where the problem starts and ends...Saddam!
If we sit by and do nothing, and at sometime in the future a mushroom cloud rises over one of our cities, how are the antis to explain to the victims/families that years before we had the means to prevent such a thing, but, we did nothing?
Unfortunately, turning the other cheek dosent work....... they just hit you in it.
There will never be freedom for iraqs people while the psychotic dictator remains, he must be removed whatever.
He cant be bargained with, he cant therefore remain where he is.
Emotive talk of "iraqi citizens" being bombed into submission, is frankly a preposterous idea.
We do not go out of our way willy nilly dropping ordnance left right and centre on population centres.
In fact we do our utmost to prevent such occurances.
Old Saddy on the other hand has no such morality about using whatever he can to quell any dissent, and he seems to relish the idea that he can wield such terror.
There seems to be a section of society that have only their own point of view on Saddam, and think that having an anti-war protest is the right thing to do.
Why are they not having an anti Saddam protest?
Thats where the problem starts and ends...Saddam!
If we sit by and do nothing, and at sometime in the future a mushroom cloud rises over one of our cities, how are the antis to explain to the victims/families that years before we had the means to prevent such a thing, but, we did nothing?
Unfortunately, turning the other cheek dosent work....... they just hit you in it.
There will never be freedom for iraqs people while the psychotic dictator remains, he must be removed whatever.
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