Bit of advice to a prospective Elise newbie...
Discussion
I used to have a jap import MX5 1.6 (now belonging to the missus) which I used for work everyday. Loved the car, but was a bit noisy on a motorway, and the stereo sounded crap even with aftermarket speakers. Handling was (and still is) fantastic (being a jap it's lower than a UK car and has a front stut brace) but the bone jarring ride got a bit much on bumpy twisty B roads where the car should be in it's element. Thrash factor was brilliant but you never really got going that fast and long trips were tiring. Enough was enough and I decided to get something more sensible.
So I'm now driving an Alfa 156 2.0 Veloce, it's a gorgeous car in metallic black with the teledial wheels and tan momo leather. It's about as good a driver's car you can get in it's class, but I'm hankering after something more fun later in the year depending how work goes and I notice that Elises have really come down in price. So I have a few questions...
I'd probably be looking at the 10k price bracket, so a Mk1, are cars of this age/price a false economy or a performance bargain? Anything particularly to look for/look out for?
How civilised are they? I know they are really spartan inside and look the business, but can you add aftermarket carpets etc to get them near to VX220 spec? I can imagine you'd hear every single stone bouncing off the floor under your feet!
What is the wind noise like with the roof up? The MX5 was fine but I had a go in a mate's Cerbera and I'm not sure I could live with that on the motorway.
What is the engine noise like? The Alfa has this great trick of purring along unless you give it the beans when it then sounds really nice. I once put a s/s performance exhaust on my Mk1 MR2. It was great...for the first 20 miles...
What's it like on the juice? I'm guessing probably better than a 2.0 Alfa...
Does anyone else out there use one as a repmobile, doing perhaps 20k plus a year? Or would the depreciation be so daft at that I'd be better just turning the MX5 into a track car??!!!
Handling...I saw JC on Top Gear moaning about understeer and only being able to provoke funslide with silly lifting off...is this true or is it a MK2 thing? How does it compare to an MX5 (lurvely) or a MK1 MR2 (bit scary in the wet, especially with such a hoooooj steering wheel!)
Sorry to sound like a bit of a wuss (road noise and carpets...pah!) but I'm hoping that someone else has done this, and found that the smiles per miles outweigh the shortcomings and lack of practicality. And yes, if I drive the MX5, unless it's bloody raining, the roof's down!
Thanks for the advice...please refer me to previous posts if you've been asked this before!!
So I'm now driving an Alfa 156 2.0 Veloce, it's a gorgeous car in metallic black with the teledial wheels and tan momo leather. It's about as good a driver's car you can get in it's class, but I'm hankering after something more fun later in the year depending how work goes and I notice that Elises have really come down in price. So I have a few questions...
I'd probably be looking at the 10k price bracket, so a Mk1, are cars of this age/price a false economy or a performance bargain? Anything particularly to look for/look out for?
How civilised are they? I know they are really spartan inside and look the business, but can you add aftermarket carpets etc to get them near to VX220 spec? I can imagine you'd hear every single stone bouncing off the floor under your feet!
What is the wind noise like with the roof up? The MX5 was fine but I had a go in a mate's Cerbera and I'm not sure I could live with that on the motorway.
What is the engine noise like? The Alfa has this great trick of purring along unless you give it the beans when it then sounds really nice. I once put a s/s performance exhaust on my Mk1 MR2. It was great...for the first 20 miles...
What's it like on the juice? I'm guessing probably better than a 2.0 Alfa...
Does anyone else out there use one as a repmobile, doing perhaps 20k plus a year? Or would the depreciation be so daft at that I'd be better just turning the MX5 into a track car??!!!
Handling...I saw JC on Top Gear moaning about understeer and only being able to provoke funslide with silly lifting off...is this true or is it a MK2 thing? How does it compare to an MX5 (lurvely) or a MK1 MR2 (bit scary in the wet, especially with such a hoooooj steering wheel!)
Sorry to sound like a bit of a wuss (road noise and carpets...pah!) but I'm hoping that someone else has done this, and found that the smiles per miles outweigh the shortcomings and lack of practicality. And yes, if I drive the MX5, unless it's bloody raining, the roof's down!
Thanks for the advice...please refer me to previous posts if you've been asked this before!!
Hi and welcome to pistonheads.
There are loads of misconceptions about elises. However, at the outset, I would say that if you found an MX5 noisy and uncomfortable, the elise is not likely to be the car for you. The Mk1 is really spartan, very little sound deadening and not really what you would call a comfortable ride compared to a saloon. Performance wise it is in another class to the MX5 in terms of acceleration and cornering grip (the MX5 was designed not to have excessive grip to make it more fun). It is a harsh ride, but even on standard suspension is in its element on B roads. The S2 is a bit more civilised - some would say softer - with a lower side sill (easier entry and exit). The car does have more natural understeer, but this is easily countered by proper technique. JC was making the understeer worse by increasing the slip angle (turning the wheel more when it started to understeer) It is not hard to get the back out. The S1 was probably a purer more focused car, but all round the S2 is ealier to live with. Decide which one looks and drives the best.
For around 10K, you can get a really decent S1, but will only just be in S2 territory, but condition will be v poor at that price. I suggest going out and driving a few to see whether you think you could live with it.
They are very economical and there are endless upgrades available:
Try www.eliseparts.com
www.eliseshop.com
Hanger111 etc to see what is available.
Likely you will get hooked.
There are loads of misconceptions about elises. However, at the outset, I would say that if you found an MX5 noisy and uncomfortable, the elise is not likely to be the car for you. The Mk1 is really spartan, very little sound deadening and not really what you would call a comfortable ride compared to a saloon. Performance wise it is in another class to the MX5 in terms of acceleration and cornering grip (the MX5 was designed not to have excessive grip to make it more fun). It is a harsh ride, but even on standard suspension is in its element on B roads. The S2 is a bit more civilised - some would say softer - with a lower side sill (easier entry and exit). The car does have more natural understeer, but this is easily countered by proper technique. JC was making the understeer worse by increasing the slip angle (turning the wheel more when it started to understeer) It is not hard to get the back out. The S1 was probably a purer more focused car, but all round the S2 is ealier to live with. Decide which one looks and drives the best.
For around 10K, you can get a really decent S1, but will only just be in S2 territory, but condition will be v poor at that price. I suggest going out and driving a few to see whether you think you could live with it.
They are very economical and there are endless upgrades available:
Try www.eliseparts.com
www.eliseshop.com
Hanger111 etc to see what is available.
Likely you will get hooked.
Thanks for the honest reply. In fairness what annoys me most about the MX5 is actually the noise from the dash...it rattles and squeaks and at any moment you feel that it's about to land in your lap (something they sorted on the Mk2). I can live with a firm ride and a fair bit of noise, as long as the thing feels taut and well screwed together. It doesn't really look like the Elise has any plastic to land in your lap anyway! The MX5, bless it, is just a cacophony of little rattles...the dash squeaks, the glovebox door bangs around, even the poxy zippers for the rear window jingle against each other! Probably why I always drive roof down!
I'd probably rather go for a well sorted Mk1 as there's a huge amount to be said for a car that has been well looked after. What's the servicing like? Are there good independants around?
You're right, probably a test drive nearer the time is the best bet. And probably best taken on a crappy wet miserable day so that I can at least attempt to make a sensible decision!!
I'd probably rather go for a well sorted Mk1 as there's a huge amount to be said for a car that has been well looked after. What's the servicing like? Are there good independants around?
You're right, probably a test drive nearer the time is the best bet. And probably best taken on a crappy wet miserable day so that I can at least attempt to make a sensible decision!!
The mk1 Mx5 is superb. A great little car let down by 2 things. Lack of power and image. As for pure handling, it may not be the best but it really can raise a grin.
My experience of S1 Elise is limited but a comparison to the Mk1 Mr2 is very good. Only the 'liz is far lighter and far quicker and far better in the bends. The Mk1 Mr2 is a great training tool to get you in a 'liz.
There was a thread runnig a few weeks back where the concensus was that for 10k you could get a very nice s1 elise.
They are very economic on fuel. Because it weighs almost nothing, the fuel requirement is minimal. In comparison to the 2l 147 I had for a while last year, it sucks fuel through a straw with a knot tied in it.
The lotus is the best driving car you are likely to get your hands on short of an S2 Elise BUT they are not very practical and for long commutes you will find thiey need more grunt on the motorway and they are very boring on the motorway. I wouldnt recomend one as a rep wagon.
Have you considered an Elan? For the money you can get the puppies privates. They handle really well, they are economic to run, comfortable, good sized boot, more room in the cabin and they handle so well, you would never believe it is FWD.
To be brutally honest, nothing in this world would get me out of my 'liz but if I was doing long motorway miles I would keep the alfa for the commute
My experience of S1 Elise is limited but a comparison to the Mk1 Mr2 is very good. Only the 'liz is far lighter and far quicker and far better in the bends. The Mk1 Mr2 is a great training tool to get you in a 'liz.
There was a thread runnig a few weeks back where the concensus was that for 10k you could get a very nice s1 elise.
They are very economic on fuel. Because it weighs almost nothing, the fuel requirement is minimal. In comparison to the 2l 147 I had for a while last year, it sucks fuel through a straw with a knot tied in it.
The lotus is the best driving car you are likely to get your hands on short of an S2 Elise BUT they are not very practical and for long commutes you will find thiey need more grunt on the motorway and they are very boring on the motorway. I wouldnt recomend one as a rep wagon.
Have you considered an Elan? For the money you can get the puppies privates. They handle really well, they are economic to run, comfortable, good sized boot, more room in the cabin and they handle so well, you would never believe it is FWD.
To be brutally honest, nothing in this world would get me out of my 'liz but if I was doing long motorway miles I would keep the alfa for the commute
Yes, I can agree with the above.
A friend of mine has an MX5 as his only car, and another friend of mine ran a standard Elise S1 on the daily commute for three years. The MX5 is quite a noisy car actually, but the Elise S1 with the hood up really was noisy! We had to shout to have a conversation on the motorway. You've also got the hood issue with the S1 Elise - that long tail hood is very fiddly and I'm not sure I could be bothered on cold mornings, meaning it would stay on - which is very noisy... The Elise hard top was actually a little noisier still! In addition to this, my friend's windows didn't actually meet the soft or hard top leaving a gap for water.. (is this normal?).
Actually, I find the ride in an S1 Elise better than an MX5 - the damping is better judged and generally the body of the car is less perturbed by bumps. However, the standard seats are very hard so overall comfort is lower. You could change the seats of course. The S2 ones are great. I've got a bad back, so you may not find this a problem if you're in better health!
Neither standard Elise or MX5 are fast, but for me the MX5's lack of power really ruins the experience, whereas the Elise, in my opinion, has sufficient power to enjoy the handling.
Much has been said about S2 understeer, and a search on this site will reveal a lot. I'm about to buy an S2, and the most complete post that I found whilst researching this S2 understeer issue was from a while back. The truth seems to be that the S2 runs on bespoke tyres, and if driven properly actually understeers less than the S1; however, if the S2 is driven without the sympathy it requires (like JC did on Top Gear) then it will understeer quite markedly. I should say that I think his extreme slip angle was merely showing the understeer to the camera, but he was indeed causing the understeer initially through a poor technique. This post said that it was to do with the front tyres on the S2 being narrower, so that they cut through standing water (you've got very little weight up front on an Elise to push water aside), but being a softer compound to resist understeer. A gentle turn in was required to give the front tyres a chance to grip properly. I've yet to drive an Elise on a track (haven't bought mine yet, so just had some road test drives), but from experience with other mid engined cars (MR2, Noble, NSX, Esprit), they do require a definate driving style to avoid terminal understeer or spinning like a top when things get out of shape. Personally, that driving style is my driving style anyway (and a lot of people I've sat with on track actually), and I've always adored mid engined cars. I particularly like the Elise's more rear biased weight distribution (feels more than the NSX or Esprit - though I can't confirm this) - from my brief road drives I get the feeling that it could be used in corners to great advantage.
Overall, I would say that a test drive or ride in an Elise S1 should make your mind up. They are great cars, but sadly less practical than an MX5. You do get a lot more handling and feedback though - in my honest opinion the Elise is in a different league to the MX5 for steering feel and feedback. I find that rattles and discomfort soon go to the back of my mind if a car rewards in other areas. Personally, I would go for an S1 Elise, but think about something else that is suitable for motorways or carrying big things around.
A friend of mine has an MX5 as his only car, and another friend of mine ran a standard Elise S1 on the daily commute for three years. The MX5 is quite a noisy car actually, but the Elise S1 with the hood up really was noisy! We had to shout to have a conversation on the motorway. You've also got the hood issue with the S1 Elise - that long tail hood is very fiddly and I'm not sure I could be bothered on cold mornings, meaning it would stay on - which is very noisy... The Elise hard top was actually a little noisier still! In addition to this, my friend's windows didn't actually meet the soft or hard top leaving a gap for water.. (is this normal?).
Actually, I find the ride in an S1 Elise better than an MX5 - the damping is better judged and generally the body of the car is less perturbed by bumps. However, the standard seats are very hard so overall comfort is lower. You could change the seats of course. The S2 ones are great. I've got a bad back, so you may not find this a problem if you're in better health!
Neither standard Elise or MX5 are fast, but for me the MX5's lack of power really ruins the experience, whereas the Elise, in my opinion, has sufficient power to enjoy the handling.
Much has been said about S2 understeer, and a search on this site will reveal a lot. I'm about to buy an S2, and the most complete post that I found whilst researching this S2 understeer issue was from a while back. The truth seems to be that the S2 runs on bespoke tyres, and if driven properly actually understeers less than the S1; however, if the S2 is driven without the sympathy it requires (like JC did on Top Gear) then it will understeer quite markedly. I should say that I think his extreme slip angle was merely showing the understeer to the camera, but he was indeed causing the understeer initially through a poor technique. This post said that it was to do with the front tyres on the S2 being narrower, so that they cut through standing water (you've got very little weight up front on an Elise to push water aside), but being a softer compound to resist understeer. A gentle turn in was required to give the front tyres a chance to grip properly. I've yet to drive an Elise on a track (haven't bought mine yet, so just had some road test drives), but from experience with other mid engined cars (MR2, Noble, NSX, Esprit), they do require a definate driving style to avoid terminal understeer or spinning like a top when things get out of shape. Personally, that driving style is my driving style anyway (and a lot of people I've sat with on track actually), and I've always adored mid engined cars. I particularly like the Elise's more rear biased weight distribution (feels more than the NSX or Esprit - though I can't confirm this) - from my brief road drives I get the feeling that it could be used in corners to great advantage.
Overall, I would say that a test drive or ride in an Elise S1 should make your mind up. They are great cars, but sadly less practical than an MX5. You do get a lot more handling and feedback though - in my honest opinion the Elise is in a different league to the MX5 for steering feel and feedback. I find that rattles and discomfort soon go to the back of my mind if a car rewards in other areas. Personally, I would go for an S1 Elise, but think about something else that is suitable for motorways or carrying big things around.
I'm a new Elise owner - mine cost 11K (got a good 2.5k px on my Mr2 though) its done 38k, one owner with FSH and is very clean if that gives you an idea, I got a better deal due to the time of year I was buying it aswell, i'm pretty sure u could save yourself about 1k just to free up a dealers forecourt space at this time of year. I was expecting noise/hard seats and a few rattle and hums and that is what I got and I love it!! I had some unexpected expense - needed a tracker monitor fitted for insurance (£380) an oversight on my part but u should check ur insurance requirments I also had to get 2 new back tyres as i drove over a bolt and decided to replace them both as the other did'nt have to much left... other than that i'm avg 38mpg and do 60 miles a day to get to work, I have a cusion but take it out weekends, at the end of the day the Lotus Elise is an experience, i look forward to getting in it having the power/handleing to put a smile on my face when I want to and being part of a club (always light flashing when driving past another one!) If you get one u will have some teething problems but its about u adjusting to the car and when u both gel its all good!
Get one... u won't look back!!.... only on and MX5 u may have just dusted!
Get one... u won't look back!!.... only on and MX5 u may have just dusted!
As somebody with a 156 and an Elise I can comment. I am on my second 156, the first was a 2.0 SP2, the current is a V6. The 156 is a great family car, relaxing to drive and after 5 years of ownership we can't think of a better replacement. The Elise on the other hand is the car that I use every single chance to go somewhere that involves less than 3 people. I've even been found queueing for the tip with the roof off, and triple bagged rubbish on the passenger seat. In the 18 months we've had the Elise it's covered 14K miles and the Alfa has done about 4K
The Elise is not for everybody, it's not that comfortable, you can't hold a conversation, can't hear the radio and so on. It's simply the best handling car on the road and that makes up for everything else.
From your original post I suspect that the Elise may be a bit raw for you, in which case I'd recommend one of the 3.0 GTV Cup models that pop up from time to time in the classifeds. You think the 2.0 Alfa engine is good, wait until you try the V6.
Be careful when you try the Elise, they are seriosuly addictive...
The Elise is not for everybody, it's not that comfortable, you can't hold a conversation, can't hear the radio and so on. It's simply the best handling car on the road and that makes up for everything else.
From your original post I suspect that the Elise may be a bit raw for you, in which case I'd recommend one of the 3.0 GTV Cup models that pop up from time to time in the classifeds. You think the 2.0 Alfa engine is good, wait until you try the V6.
Be careful when you try the Elise, they are seriosuly addictive...
gooby said:
Have you considered an Elan? For the money you can get the puppies privates. They handle really well, they are economic to run, comfortable, good sized boot, more room in the cabin and they handle so well, you would never believe it is FWD.
wonderful car...though to get the hounds rounds would still require nearer 14K.....
Thanks again for the tips all. Some replies...
Shangani...sorry, should have said, Rugby, Warks.
Gooby...Elan, never really done it for me I'm afraid, I'd probably rather update the MX5 in fairness, it's neither one thing nor the other and just don't like FWD in a sports car.
RobM77...fair comment on the roof, the MX5 is easy by comparison. I also have a bad back (just had part of a disc removed although loads better now) but in the MX5 I feel it's the car about to fall apart, not me. The ride in the 156 is quite hard for a saloon in fairness but you don't notice it as apart from a slightly squeky driver's seat the dash etc is all rock solid.
Reubsta...38mpg is good, can't fault that. I could get something much quicker and more comfy for the money but the running costs would be prohibitive. Even the 156 is quite juicy if you really boot it.
dgr...thanks for the info, I've seen a GTV cup near me, red, and always gleaming, nice looking car.
I used to own an ex RAF Landrover which I drove on road far more than I should because it was a laugh. Noisy, slow, uncomfortable, maybe, but because it was the real deal you'd let it off. Had it been an old Shogun I would have cursed it. I also used to use a bike to commute 85 miles a day (FZR750) and again although it had all the impracticalities you'd forget them as soon as you opened the throttle. Perhaps that's the whole MX5/Elise thing...becasue the MX5 tries to be civilised you get p*ssed off with anything that squeaks. OK it's fun asking the passenger to lean back so you can see where you're going on a roundabout but it never really gives much of a speed buzz (the alfa feels just buckets faster even though you are "removed" a bit from the driving experience). Where the Elise does not try to be civilised at all, you don't worry about the shortcomings becasue it will reward on demand.
I'll just have to get out in one and try it!
Shangani...sorry, should have said, Rugby, Warks.
Gooby...Elan, never really done it for me I'm afraid, I'd probably rather update the MX5 in fairness, it's neither one thing nor the other and just don't like FWD in a sports car.
RobM77...fair comment on the roof, the MX5 is easy by comparison. I also have a bad back (just had part of a disc removed although loads better now) but in the MX5 I feel it's the car about to fall apart, not me. The ride in the 156 is quite hard for a saloon in fairness but you don't notice it as apart from a slightly squeky driver's seat the dash etc is all rock solid.
Reubsta...38mpg is good, can't fault that. I could get something much quicker and more comfy for the money but the running costs would be prohibitive. Even the 156 is quite juicy if you really boot it.
dgr...thanks for the info, I've seen a GTV cup near me, red, and always gleaming, nice looking car.
I used to own an ex RAF Landrover which I drove on road far more than I should because it was a laugh. Noisy, slow, uncomfortable, maybe, but because it was the real deal you'd let it off. Had it been an old Shogun I would have cursed it. I also used to use a bike to commute 85 miles a day (FZR750) and again although it had all the impracticalities you'd forget them as soon as you opened the throttle. Perhaps that's the whole MX5/Elise thing...becasue the MX5 tries to be civilised you get p*ssed off with anything that squeaks. OK it's fun asking the passenger to lean back so you can see where you're going on a roundabout but it never really gives much of a speed buzz (the alfa feels just buckets faster even though you are "removed" a bit from the driving experience). Where the Elise does not try to be civilised at all, you don't worry about the shortcomings becasue it will reward on demand.
I'll just have to get out in one and try it!
156er said:
I'll just have to get out in one and try it!
Yep! The Elise is such a unique car that I think that's probably the only way.
Personally, I've got comfy chairs and a good stereo at home - that's my attitude. I love driving and transport is absolutely nothing to do with it. I can't wait to get my Elise!
156er said:
I'll just have to get out in one and try it!
Yep! The Elise is such a unique car that I think that's probably the only way.
Personally, I've got comfy chairs and a good stereo at home - that's my attitude. I love driving and transport is absolutely nothing to do with it. I can't wait to get my Elise!
156er said:
I'll just have to get out in one and try it!
Yep! The Elise is such a unique car that I think that's probably the only way.
Personally, I've got comfy chairs and a good stereo at home - that's my attitude. I love driving and transport is absolutely nothing to do with it. I can't wait to get my Elise!
156er said:
What is the wind noise like with the roof up? The MX5 was fine but I had a go in a mate's Cerbera and I'm not sure I could live with that on the motorway.
??? All of my mates with Cerberas have their roof up all year....
The Mk1 Elise is nothing like Cerbera performance in a straight line. Its cramped inside, the suspension (as standard) is noisey, it clunks and bangs and if you run over a coin, you know whether its heads or tails side up. Its hard to get into, the K series is a metro engine and prone to head gasket failure, the boot is tiny and storage inside the car is, erm, next to nothing. It has no air con, no electric windows, no central locking, no ABS (or servo for that matter) and no power steering. And lastly, it looks like a plastic beachbuggy that has been lowered.
Its absolutely fecking brilliant and gives me a massive grin everytime I drive it. I would thoroughly recommend it as a must have car at some stage of every driver's lifetime.
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