Tip Vs Manual – any Back-2-Back performance comparisons ?
Discussion
I am wondering if there are any real world tests / data / write ups any of you have found comparing any modern Porsches Like-for-Like, save for being a Manual Vs. a Tiptronic ?
Actuals, not opinions.
I seem to remember Porsche got Walter to do the ‘ring in a 996TT manual and then a Tiptronic 996TT and the tip was a few seconds slower but not much.
Tips are opinioned by so many as not much cop, and I was wondering if there’s some strong evidence. I know they are a tad slower but a lot slower ? Especially if one takes the +35 Kgs of the tip box away ?
>> Edited by cyrus1971 on Tuesday 17th January 08:25
Actuals, not opinions.
I seem to remember Porsche got Walter to do the ‘ring in a 996TT manual and then a Tiptronic 996TT and the tip was a few seconds slower but not much.
Tips are opinioned by so many as not much cop, and I was wondering if there’s some strong evidence. I know they are a tad slower but a lot slower ? Especially if one takes the +35 Kgs of the tip box away ?
>> Edited by cyrus1971 on Tuesday 17th January 08:25
My only experience is when I had my Tip Boxster S & I often ran side by side with my mates 2.7 Boxster (manual). Absolutly nothing in it at all, which indicates the power & torque advantage of the S was negated by the Tip box.
The Tip box adds some weight to the car too so that probably blunts performance a little.
Having driven a manual S I can for sure say the manual is faster.
I would never have Tip again, perhaps only if I lived in a busy city & spent all my time in traffic, but then I wouldn't have a Porsche !
Not knocking it, but not for me.
R
>> Edited by rumplestiltskin on Tuesday 17th January 09:53
The Tip box adds some weight to the car too so that probably blunts performance a little.
Having driven a manual S I can for sure say the manual is faster.
I would never have Tip again, perhaps only if I lived in a busy city & spent all my time in traffic, but then I wouldn't have a Porsche !
Not knocking it, but not for me.
R
>> Edited by rumplestiltskin on Tuesday 17th January 09:53
Depends on the car, I vowed never to own a tiptronic.. demo'd an X50TT and loved it.
It does work well with lots of turbo torque, just press and take off.. no downside.
Then you have all the upside, of ease in traffic and just poodling around.
I think it's a male issue though, and people's conception of one's driving ability. Not an issue for me, as I could lap at Schumacher pace in the RS on a wet Silverstone GP trackday.. Ask Glenn..!!
It does work well with lots of turbo torque, just press and take off.. no downside.
Then you have all the upside, of ease in traffic and just poodling around.
I think it's a male issue though, and people's conception of one's driving ability. Not an issue for me, as I could lap at Schumacher pace in the RS on a wet Silverstone GP trackday.. Ask Glenn..!!
rumplestiltskin said:
My only experience is when I had my Tip Boxster S & I often ran side by side with my mates 2.7 Boxster (manual). Absolutly nothing in it at all, which indicates the power & torque advantage of the S was negated by the Tip box.
The Tip box adds some weight to the car too so that probably blunts performance a little.
Having driven a manual S I can for sure say the manual is faster.
I would never have Tip again, perhaps only if I lived in a busy city & spent all my time in traffic, but then I wouldn't have a Porsche !
Not knocking it, but not for me.
R
>> Edited by rumplestiltskin on Tuesday 17th January 09:53
I should have mentioned to focus on the 996TT – boxster is a different question.
On the 996TT I really do believe that it is an infinitesimally small difference between a Tip and a manual in this car. With a Boxster comparison the difference would be more pronounced. Reason a 996 TT is different :
(1) it’s a locking (virtually no viscosity) clutch when in gear
(2) It's a turbo
(3) 5 auto speeds suit it as well as 6 manual considering the torque
(4) It is a Mercedes gearbox (Borg Warner?) and changes are fast and consistently fast + perfectly judged each time
(5) I believe the Boxster S tip’ gearbox is also fitted to my dad’s Peogeot Tdi
I know all the “controllability” points they are all valid, I’ll do some web searches for actual track performance comparisons.
C
>> Edited by cyrus1971 on Tuesday 17th January 11:05
There is no difference in real time performance.. on road between a TT manual and tiptronic, anybody that says there is.. is talking b*llocks.
On track the control-ability of gear selection plays a part, but you have to be v.good with heel and toe to benefit fully in say a GT3/RS.
My five cars last year were..
Evo MR340 modified to fq 400 spec with full Cusco Race suspension + brakes etc..
GT3 Mk2
M3 CSL with APs
Sagaris
GT3 RS
I did about 20 trackdays last year, including Silverstone GP, Brands GP, Spa and the Ring.. so should have some manual gear shifting experience.
I have also driven on track(Snetterton) a very modified manual TT running approx 550bhp.
So when I demo'd the X50 tiptronic, was looking to find fault.. so that I could say to myself.. get a "manly manual", could find no fault.. only upside, hence purchase.
IMO
On track the control-ability of gear selection plays a part, but you have to be v.good with heel and toe to benefit fully in say a GT3/RS.
My five cars last year were..
Evo MR340 modified to fq 400 spec with full Cusco Race suspension + brakes etc..
GT3 Mk2
M3 CSL with APs
Sagaris
GT3 RS
I did about 20 trackdays last year, including Silverstone GP, Brands GP, Spa and the Ring.. so should have some manual gear shifting experience.
I have also driven on track(Snetterton) a very modified manual TT running approx 550bhp.
So when I demo'd the X50 tiptronic, was looking to find fault.. so that I could say to myself.. get a "manly manual", could find no fault.. only upside, hence purchase.
IMO
Interesting that the Tip box adds about 40kg's in weight to the overall car and adds a second to its 0-120mph time.
Not saying that makes a difference real world but just found it interesting.
The other thing to bear in mind is that if you intend to modify the 996TT, the Tiptronic box cannot handle much extra grunt, while the manual can handle loads extra, so Tip limits the tuning potential, if you wanted to modify it.
R.
Not saying that makes a difference real world but just found it interesting.
The other thing to bear in mind is that if you intend to modify the 996TT, the Tiptronic box cannot handle much extra grunt, while the manual can handle loads extra, so Tip limits the tuning potential, if you wanted to modify it.
R.
rumplestiltskin said:
Interesting that the Tip box adds about 40kg's in weight to the overall car and adds a second to its 0-120mph time.
Not saying that makes a difference real world but just found it interesting.
The other thing to bear in mind is that if you intend to modify the 996TT, the Tiptronic box cannot handle much extra grunt, while the manual can handle loads extra, so Tip limits the tuning potential, if you wanted to modify it.
R.
Prob true about the 0-120 time, but how many people sidestep the clutch at 4k revs, with 4wd and a massive footprint.. unless you wanna replace clutch every 3k miles.
I remember an old cruiser I used to have, Jag XJR.. Used to floor away from lights with autobox, car was whisper quiet apart charger whoosh, and you would serenely leave most cars for dead, but in a subtle way. As opposed to giving large revs, wheelspin and looking like a complete dick.
Don’t know if this helps but when I bought my 993 I went for a manual. Really I couldn’t see any performance difference between the tip and the manual but I couldn’t bring myself to buy an automatic 911, just didn’t seem right. Decision was based on testosterone only. Same reason I suppose I bought the 993 rather than a 996, didn’t like the thought of all that water ruining the car……
johnfm said:They seem to work pretty well in drag racing though, where humans can't shift fast enough to keep up with the acceleration. The 2 speed PowerGlide auto transmission seems quite popular with those boys - maybe someone should tell them they'd be better off with a six speed manual box?
"Manual is quicker of the mark because if needed you can dump the clutch."
Can you not hold the accelerator at 3k rpm in Drive with your foot on the brake, then sidestep the brake to get the full dumping clutch effect?
Not really, no. Not quite the same.
There was a magazine article that compared a couple Boxsters back to back. IIRC there was little in it. Certainly it gets derided, but unjustly IMO
I'm a big fan of Tiptronic. I tried several manuals before I chose the Tiptronic, though Tiptronic wasn't the overiding factor I certainly do not regret my choice and at no stage have I wished I bought a manual,
In town it's a doddle, no faffing around with gear sticks and clutches.
Get out and about for some fun driving and select manual and it's brilliant. The changes are almost instantaneous. Both hands on the wheel and concentrate on steering a flick (or 2) of a finger and I can drop 2 gears as quickly as a manual shift.
Even in auto mode I think the changes are pretty quick and much better than many other auto's.
For those that say it's "clunky" , not so IMO. Power sapping? not significantly. Detrimental to fuel economy? My consumption is around 29mpg on motorway drives and 24mpg "having fun", not bad I think!
There will be those who like to quote 0-60 figures; I'll leave that to the hairy chested boys who like to see who can pee furthest, highest etc!
Put a manual and tiptronic side by side for a 0-60 sprint and I wouldn't mind betting there would be little in it, unless of course the manual driver has a very good technique for standing starts and is not too worried about cooking his clutch!
Tiptronic, simply bury the throttle pedal and let the electronic wizardry take care of it all, and I won't get any funny smells from my car!
On a journey from A to B you'd be there just as quick as a manual, maybe sooner on a "twisty" trip.
The Tip is a clever bit of kit; 6 programs that adjust to your current driving style, sensors that will prevent unwanted changes mid-corner, it's simply more than an auto box and it takes more than a 20 minute test-drive to discover its hidden talents!
Right, I'll sit back and and let all the "hairy chests" pick my post apart....in a fit of pique no doubt!
Unless of course, you subscribe to the notion that such devices are primarily intended for, well... those of a less masculine disposition?
In which case, as a girl, that's fine; I've made the right choice!!!
Jackie
I'm a big fan of Tiptronic. I tried several manuals before I chose the Tiptronic, though Tiptronic wasn't the overiding factor I certainly do not regret my choice and at no stage have I wished I bought a manual,
In town it's a doddle, no faffing around with gear sticks and clutches.
Get out and about for some fun driving and select manual and it's brilliant. The changes are almost instantaneous. Both hands on the wheel and concentrate on steering a flick (or 2) of a finger and I can drop 2 gears as quickly as a manual shift.
Even in auto mode I think the changes are pretty quick and much better than many other auto's.
For those that say it's "clunky" , not so IMO. Power sapping? not significantly. Detrimental to fuel economy? My consumption is around 29mpg on motorway drives and 24mpg "having fun", not bad I think!
There will be those who like to quote 0-60 figures; I'll leave that to the hairy chested boys who like to see who can pee furthest, highest etc!
Put a manual and tiptronic side by side for a 0-60 sprint and I wouldn't mind betting there would be little in it, unless of course the manual driver has a very good technique for standing starts and is not too worried about cooking his clutch!
Tiptronic, simply bury the throttle pedal and let the electronic wizardry take care of it all, and I won't get any funny smells from my car!
On a journey from A to B you'd be there just as quick as a manual, maybe sooner on a "twisty" trip.
The Tip is a clever bit of kit; 6 programs that adjust to your current driving style, sensors that will prevent unwanted changes mid-corner, it's simply more than an auto box and it takes more than a 20 minute test-drive to discover its hidden talents!
Right, I'll sit back and and let all the "hairy chests" pick my post apart....in a fit of pique no doubt!
Unless of course, you subscribe to the notion that such devices are primarily intended for, well... those of a less masculine disposition?
In which case, as a girl, that's fine; I've made the right choice!!!
Jackie
Thanks guys - all worthy comments. A couple of points :
(1) UP : an extra benefit of a tip is that it gets a lot more from the PSM system as there is one further significant variable for it to control
(2) UP : Limitations of the 996TT box is circa 500 bhp as the Merc AMG has 500 Bhp. However other components in the car flag at 500bhp so the gearbox is not the only one. Though perhaps it is a fixed and expensive barrier that's hard to cross)
(3) UP : Second hand they make better buys as the electronics will have prevented abuse
(4) UP : you don't need to replace clutches
(5) DOWN : does cost a £2K more
I believe Porsche will have an Audi style DSG phased in across the ranges within a year. If so I'll never have another manual Porsche.
Cyrus
(1) UP : an extra benefit of a tip is that it gets a lot more from the PSM system as there is one further significant variable for it to control
(2) UP : Limitations of the 996TT box is circa 500 bhp as the Merc AMG has 500 Bhp. However other components in the car flag at 500bhp so the gearbox is not the only one. Though perhaps it is a fixed and expensive barrier that's hard to cross)
(3) UP : Second hand they make better buys as the electronics will have prevented abuse
(4) UP : you don't need to replace clutches
(5) DOWN : does cost a £2K more
I believe Porsche will have an Audi style DSG phased in across the ranges within a year. If so I'll never have another manual Porsche.
Cyrus
Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff