Friday 20th January 2006

Points Don't Work

Few drivers think penalty points system is effective

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Nearly two-in-three drivers think the current UK system of dishing out penalty points for speeding convictions is unfair and insufficient to deter people from committing road offences, according to a new poll.

Only 36 per cent of respondents said they felt that the current points system was adequate to deal with Britain’s motorists in the 21^st Century.

Research carried out by insurance intermediary The A&A Group Ltd showed that the youngest drivers who took part in the survey, in the 16 to 25-year-old bracket, had the most points on their licences, with an average of seven! This dropped down to 5.25 for 26 to 34-year-olds, 4.5 for 35 to 50-year-olds and three for those aged 51 and over.

Tony Allen, Chief Executive of The A&A Group, blurted, "Our survey shows that of those caught speeding, not all told their insurance company. Those that were honest saw their premiums rise as a result of the associated points,” he said.

 “There is often no account taken of the circumstances of the offence. For instance, we recognise the difference between someone caught doing 85mph on a motorway and someone doing 50mph in a school zone and assess the cases accordingly – but many insurers do not.

Other findings in the survey included the fact that only 16 per cent of people thought speed cameras promoted safety.

[alanruss]

16 - 25 with an average of 7? I think this is a bit unlikely!! *Unless* you count the 6 you get given for the first 2 years as 'probation point' making getting given an average of 7 automatic disqualification by increasing the total to 13. Or the reral average is 1 'extra'. It just doesn't work out at getting given 7 on average. Or of course people wait till they are a minimum of 19 and then rack up 7 once those probationary points come off after two years? Which I also think unlikely given worries about insurance?

[cliffe_mafia]

It is ironic that by dishing out points like sweets the government have removed the stigma that used to be attached to speeding.

It used to be only real (dangerous) nutters that got 6+ points and now its seen as being socially acceptable IMO.

[pdV6]

cliffe_mafia said:

It is ironic that by dishing out points like sweets the government have removed the stigma that used to be attached to speeding.

I used to be justifiably proud of my clean licence and looked on those with large numbers of points as a potential menace.

Now that its ridiculously easy to pick up points for ordinary 'safe' driving, the stigma is all but gone. I could name a few people I know that have no points (afaik), but I'd have to think long and hard, whereas a few years ago the reverse would have been true (i.e. I'd have had to wrack my brains to think of a few with points)!

[Flat in Fifth]

I think points would work in the reverse direction.

A detailed suggestion was posted on here a few weeks ago, sadly I can't find it now.

Along the lines that one started with no points and earned points with accident / conviction free years, taking and passing advanced driver training, Pass Plus, IAM , RoSPA and so on earning various extras. Accrued points removed for convictions.

Just to mke it really complicated there was a suggestion that, as for bikes, only those with a certain number of points could drive more powerful vehicles.

To me it begins to address the imbalance in the current system, too much stick and not enough carrot.

[havoc]

Survey tells us the bleedin' obvious. The end!

Flat in Fifth said:

To me it begins to address the imbalance in the current system, too much stick and not enough carrot.

Typical of the current government - carrot's cost money.


I can't believe these averages are representative of the population...out of my group of friends and family, hardly anyone has any points...one good friend has 3 nearly gone, while another mate's wife is on 9 and he's on 3. And that's it out of about 20 people.

Having said that, I don't think points work as a deterrent, or are fair - points have no financial deterrent for those with company cars or old bangers, while they have a major financial deterrent for those young people who DO have insurance, and for those of us who are enthusiasts in high-group cars.

Consequently the punitive effect is highly variable.

What are the options though, except for FiF's idea? Can't means-test the fines, as the scrotes who don't currently have insurance will pay b'gg'r-all. But can't have a flat-rate fine as those on high incomes won't care...and will just keep the hammer down regardless.

[GTRene]

Points don't has to say anything about your drivers skills! so I think that system is no good, ofcorse it scare's you getting points, and its not nice to loose your license!
But when they take your license away you can't get insured, but most of them will still drive! so better lets keep them their license "if they can drive" ofcorse...and just give them a ticket, that way you can avoid much better, that people go out driving with no ensurance and license!! and take a run(dangerous) in their car when they spotted police!
And to add a bit pain to all of us and every one will feel the same...do a penalty on a income salery scale...lets say a penalty start with 50,- for a minium income salery...that means when someone gets 10 times that income salery monthly, that person have to pay 500,- and so on...the more your income in percentage the higher the price!
That way all, rich and poor feel the same equel pain in their pocket!! and not only teh poor.
Maybe only do some points when drunk driving! or very reckless dangerous driving( aperson who can't drive?)
GTRene

>> Edited by GTRene on Friday 20th January 12:30

[Gruffy]

alanruss said:

16 - 25 with an average of 7? I think this is a bit unlikely!!

What you have to remember with surveys like this is that the participants may not be a truly representative sample. For instance, drivers with many points are likely to feel more strongly about the issue and are more likely to take part than those who do not.

Gruffy

[dkennedyvxt]

I was caught recently doing 75 in a 40. I accept that I should be punished for this however the road in question was the Western Aproach road in Edinburgh, 2 lanes either way and no houses or footpaths nearby there were no other cars on the road and the radar van was parked on the grass at the end. It's a long straight road and IMO should not be a 40mph zone.

Parking a van there is purely a revenue generator as if safety was a concern they'd be outside a school or built up areas.

[cymtriks]

"Our survey shows that of those caught speeding, not all told their insurance company. Those that were honest saw their premiums rise as a result of the associated points"

I thought that insurance companies didn't care about a few speeding points?

Are you expected to tell them when you renew or as soon as you get them?

[GTRene]

dkennedyvxt said:

I was caught recently doing 75 in a 40. I accept that I should be punished for this however the road in question was the Western Aproach road in Edinburgh, 2 lanes either way and no houses or footpaths nearby there were no other cars on the road and the radar van was parked on the grass at the end. It's a long straight road and IMO should not be a 40mph zone. Parking a van there is purely a revenue generator as if safety was a concern they'd be outside a school or built up areas.

Those things should not cost points!! only a speeding ticket when they got you...

[devious]

Re: Disclosing points/convictions to insurer. Your insurer will consider them to be a material fact and could refuse to pay a claim on the grounds of non disclosure. Not worth the risk, imo, because of the number of uninsured idiots on the road and sod's law that you'll be hit by one.

In 30 years of driving I've collected two SP30s, both by police with radar guns lurking unseen - one a hundred or so yards beyond a bend on the A55 entering Penmaenmawr, (1978) the other beyond the brow of a hill on the A75 near the Gatehouse of Fleet (1998). I will be driving very slowly throughout the year 2018.

I've been stopped a couple of times too, but given a ticking off. 38 in a 30 and 83 in a 70. Sorry, but 75 in a 40 zone is asking for it.

[bunglist]

GTRene said:

Points don't has to say anything about your drivers skills! so I think that system is no good, ofcorse it scare's you getting points, and its not nice to loose your license! But when they take your license away you can't get insured, but most of them will still drive! so better lets keep them their license "if they can drive" ofcorse...and just give them a ticket, that way you can avoid much better, that people go out driving with no ensurance and license!! and take a run(dangerous) in their car when they spotted police! And to add a bit pain to all of us and every one will feel the same...do a penalty on a income salery scale...lets say a penalty start with 50,- for a minium income salery...that means when someone gets 10 times that income salery monthly, that person have to pay 500,- and so on...the more your income in percentage the higher the price! That way all, rich and poor feel the same equel pain in their pocket!! and not only teh poor. Maybe only do some points when drunk driving! or very reckless dangerous driving( aperson who can't drive?) GTRene >> Edited by GTRene on Friday 20th January 12:30

This is really fair then?????????

Why should someone who earns more have to pay more than some dole blagging peasant?

How is this fair?????????

This is Labourite reasoning. (completely unfair, take from the hard workers and give to dole blaggers so that they can sit on there arses doing sweet FA)

[elwe]

I am sure the goverment will scrap points soon. After all it will generate more revenue. At the minute you can only fine a driver 4 times before they are off the road. If you remove the points you can fine them once a week until they give up the car (never going to happen).

I have discounted people slowing down because we have all seen the examples of 'infallible' speed traps catching fences doing 40 in a 30 limit, while set into the ground in concrete.

Or am I too cynical?

[ashes]

Interestingly with my latest renewal - Brokers Direct, I would recommend them - I received a free '12 points plus' insurance that pays up to £2000 per month for alternative transport if you lose your licence through speeding penalties!

I didn't ask for this but just in case its nice to know.

Looks like insurance companies recognise that people able to earn their livelihood is good business!

Shame HMG is oblivious to the fact.

Anyone remember in 1997 - we will get rid of laws......

Ho Hum

Ken

[jazzyjeff]

Flat in Fifth said:

I think points would work in the reverse direction. A detailed suggestion was posted on here a few weeks ago, sadly I can't find it now. Along the lines that one started with no points and earned points with accident / conviction free years, taking and passing advanced driver training, Pass Plus, IAM , RoSPA and so on earning various extras. Accrued points removed for convictions. Just to mke it really complicated there was a suggestion that, as for bikes, only those with a certain number of points could drive more powerful vehicles. To me it begins to address the imbalance in the current system, too much stick and not enough carrot.

This is an excellent idea, which I support.

However, this solution only really addresses insurance premiums - there would still need to be some kind of penalty system (financial or otherwise) to deal with truly dangerous drivers - assuming of course there would be enough plod on the road to catch them.

JJ

[dkennedyvxt]

I've been stopped a couple of times too, but given a ticking off. 38 in a 30 and 83 in a 70. Sorry, but 75 in a 40 zone is asking for it.
[/quote]

I'd agree if it was a normal 40 mph zone however as I said...this looks like a dual carriageway and has 4 lanes (2 each way)...very straight and long and no walkways or paths. I'd never drive at 75 in a built up area. I genuinely believed this was a 60mph zone and I've lived in Edinburgh for 10 years.....this was the only time i'd driven it out of rush hour and it was empty.

[pridmorej]

Sounds like a typical example of local authorities deliberately lowering speed limits in the name of 'safety' thereby making it illegal to drive at 60mph down a road which would be perfectly safe to drive on at 60mph. It's entrapment I'm sure.

So what is more dangerous?

1. A driver doing 75 down what is described as a dual carriageway marked at an inadequate 40; or
2. A driver pulling out of a slip road onto a mildly busy 2 lane motorway doing 40mph?

I'll tell you which. The idiot pulling out at 40mph making other drivers have to slow down and change lane unnecessarily....and who does the law think is wrong? Yep - the confident one doing 75.

I said it once before - instead of speed cameras we need IQ cameras - anyone caught going past a camera with an IQ less than 80 should be given a ticket!

[james_j]

Any "punishment", whatever it is, will be seen as pointless and irrelevant if the "offence" in question is not seen as an offence.

Most people correctly see exceeding speed limits as no problem / no danger, just look at recent surveys showing the numbers against speed cameras of any sort.

[mybrainhurts]

Government and judiciary take far too lightly the effects of points that can have devastating effects on their victims.

Reported this week, five points for splashing a policewoman with water.

A couple more minor indiscretions in three years can lead to loss of licence.

This doesn't just mean deprivation of personal mobility, it can mean loss of job, leading to loss of home, leading to failure of marriage and destruction of family.

The pendulum has swung too far the wrong way, and must be pulled back into line. Points for minor transgressions must be abolished, or we can forget all notion that we live in a civilised society. Common sense and fair play must take precedence over the appeasement of zealots who take pleasure in controlling society by any means, at any cost.

We need to raise awareness of this iniquity. The man in the street seems blissfully unaware of the creeping menace of points that threatens to blight his life.

Where do we start...?

[GTRene]

bunglist said:

GTRene said: Points don't has to say anything about your drivers skills! so I think that system is no good, ofcorse it scare's you getting points, and its not nice to loose your license! But when they take your license away you can't get insured, but most of them will still drive! so better lets keep them their license "if they can drive" ofcorse...and just give them a ticket, that way you can avoid much better, that people go out driving with no ensurance and license!! and take a run(dangerous) in their car when they spotted police! And to add a bit pain to all of us and every one will feel the same...do a penalty on a income salery scale...lets say a penalty start with 50,- for a minium income salery...that means when someone gets 10 times that income salery monthly, that person have to pay 500,- and so on...the more your income in percentage the higher the price! That way all, rich and poor feel the same equel pain in their pocket!! and not only teh poor. Maybe only do some points when drunk driving! or very reckless dangerous driving( aperson who can't drive?) GTRene >> Edited by GTRene on Friday 20th January 12:30 This is really fair then????????? Why should someone who earns more have to pay more than some dole blagging peasant? How is this fair????????? This is Labourite reasoning. (completely unfair, take from the hard workers and give to dole blaggers so that they can sit on there arses doing sweet FA)

It is Fair in the way of feeling it in your wallet! a rich person don't feel 50,- they laugh about that a poor person 50,- means no foot? you see, and if they wanted to punnisch you because of speeding, you have to feel it in your wallet, and don't work with points, I hate that way...only money when speeding and depends on your incom, so a rich person feels the same as the poor! hope I can make it claer what I try to say with my poor English(sorry)
GTRene