BMW plain wrapper plod car ?

[woof]

Hi

Anyone notice a white V Reg BMW 5 series (pretty sure it was a 5 series) 5 door plain wrapper police car on the M1/M25 ?

I was going along the M25 tonight doing about 110 when this BMW came off the M1 onto the M25 eastbound, he was doing an easy ton, so I went past him, speed up a bit - too be matched by him for 1/2 a mile, then the blue lights in the grill come on - duh !

anyway he then goes past me (I didn't actually glance over, I just acknowledge him with a wave ! ) then he speed off, through the roadworks.

I'm sure there was no passenger - perhaps that's why he couldn't stop me - I think there has to be video evidence and or a second officer/ calibrated equipment etc. The car didn;'t have any special ariels on it either. I know you can buy those blue flashing lights ( a mate has them on his Range ) Anyone know if plod are using BMW's ??

[joust]

Police all over London now use marked and unmarked BMW's - 3's 5's and the odd "M" (from the look of the Alloys and sound of them).

J

[apeebles]

Yep.... Blue M5 patrolling in Reading and along the M4. Lovely car and excellently driven.... I wonder if it is electronically limited!

[Byff]

I saw a white S-Type Jag on the M1 Northbound. Would never have guessed it was an unwrapped copper had it not been on the hard shoulder with its lights on.

[SBD]

Also heard something the other day about dibble now buying their cars in silver to improve the resale value?

[andytk]

Yup unmarked upmarket BMW's seem to be the choice chariot of the cops up here too (Scotland). Ours even have Mercs as well.

Also unmarked bikes. I saw some poor sod in a Golf get pulled over on the M77 by two black bikes with blue flashing lights. You wouldn't know they were cops till the lights came on. The only problem (for them) is they work in pairs so if you see a pair of unmarked Pan Europeans in your rear view the slow down and let them past....

Andy

[moleamol]

On the M6 up near Wigan there is a plain 535i, bugger followed me for about 4 miles after I passed him, realised he had his uniform on, then pulled over to slow down (light green metallic).

The other, more unlikely one was a Merc SL! Dark blue, again, would never have guessed what it was only he was on the shoulder with his lights on.

[P*Ting]

A1 near Grantham:

A brown and a purple Omega,
Green Vectra,
Blue MGF,

Amongst others.

[madcop]

Hi

I'm sure there was no passenger - perhaps that's why he couldn't stop me - I think there has to be video evidence and or a second officer/ calibrated equipment etc. The car didn;'t have any special ariels on it either. I know you can buy those blue flashing lights ( a mate has them on his Range ) Anyone know if plod are using BMW's ??

The witness can be a mechanical device. it does not need two officers, just one officer and a speedo is sufficient (provided it is calibrated)

For your information, two Police officers on foot can prosecute you on speed by estimating it if they are patrolling together. No technical device is needed at all, just an opinion.

Police are deemed in law to be experts in two subjects.
That means they can give evidence of opinion in court which is accepted by the courts as expert evidence.

1. Speed (not the stuff you shove up your hooter)

2. Drunkeness. Cheers


>> Edited by madcop on Wednesday 11th December 01:27

[woof]

cheers Mad cop - of course I was doing 110 kph not mph !!!

[Nightmare]

P*Ting said: A1 near Grantham:
Blue MGF,

You're having a bubble?

[steveblade_uk]

madcop. When and how do you think all this speed legislation will afect you? Or has it already? Personaly Im on the verge of saying f**k it all ill go abroad and start again! 7 years on the road, 10 points in the last 10 months both sp30's via gatso clean licence before that. I feel like im living in a police state, everytime I pass a gatso I look over my shoulder to see if its loaded. I wonder how may good cops will find themselves out of work because of theses disgusting devices taking licences from your work mates and civilains alike? One other point, how can I be convicted on your expert opinion alone? Are all cops/police officers in the uk, road traffic (experts)????? ps utmost respect to you for doing the job you do, I have friends in the job and I Know its not a doddle, just asking your opinion

>> Edited by steveblade_uk on Saturday 14th December 22:25

[tvradict]

Last december a group of cadets went to the Strathclyde Police Motor Pool place in Glasgow. One of my mates told me there were amongst the usual Pugs and Fords, there were
5 Marked M5's
6 Unmarked BMW's
Assorted Mercedes, Mostly Marked ML's but a couple of Unmarked E or S class.
And A TVR Tuscan
He wasn't sure if the Tiv was a Plod Motor or one that had been impounded, but a lone plod man jumped in it and dissappeared onto the M8 just before they left. Taking it to the Proper Impound perhaps!

This is all here'say and I have no idea how much, if any, is true.

>> Edited by tvradict on Saturday 14th December 22:36

[bobthebench]

madcop said:

The witness can be a mechanical device. it does not need two officers, just one officer and a speedo is sufficient (provided it is calibrated) ONLY IN ENGLAND AND WALES

Police are deemed in law to be experts in two subjects. NEWS TO ME. NOT IN MY COURT THEY AREN'T

Don't adhere to the propoganda folks. Police evidence used to be accepted as honest and truthful, and their wisdom unlimited, till they started overstepping the mark. If you have a different opinion, put it forward in court, or challenge it with the CPS/PF. It will surprise you how often the case then disappears.

[bobthebench]

tvradict said: One of my mates told me there were amongst the usual Pugs and Fords, there were
5 Marked M5's
6 Unmarked BMW's
Assorted Mercedes, Mostly Marked ML's but a couple of Unmarked E or S class.
And A TVR Tuscan
He wasn't sure if the Tiv was a Plod Motor or one that had been impounded, but a lone plod man jumped in it and dissappeared onto the M8 just before they left. Taking it to the Proper Impound perhaps!

This is all here'say and I have no idea how much, if any, is true.

>> Edited by tvradict on Saturday 14th December 22:36

Hugely unlikely to use M5s, but a plethora of 5 Series in use, marked and unmarked, saloon and estates. Most divisons have at least one. Mercedes also common, in all series. Even still use rover 800s !!

TVR would be a cop's car. Many English forces require mature, family men for traffic duty. Strathclyde allows new guys out, so single ones tend to drive sportier cars, such as TVR, Scoobies, and Skylines.

Such cars do tempt fate, but as luck would have it, the Police Federation diary is just about the size to hold a driving licence. So if they carry their's with them, by coincidence inside their diary, even when stopped, they seem to get away with a warning. Strange that.

[joust]

bobthebench said:
Hugely unlikely to use M5s, but a plethora of 5 Series in use, marked and unmarked, saloon and estates.

City Police park their marked M5 on the red route opposite the east entrance of Liverpool Street station all the time - funny how they never get a ticket from the passing red route patrol vans

J

[madcop]

steveblade_uk said: madcop. When and how do you think all this speed legislation will afect you?

It does. At work I have to make sure that I have a reason for ezxceeding the limits which can be backed up by a hard copy of a URN (Unique reference number) job from the command and control system. Even though Police are exempt from limits if the vehicle is being used for 'Police Purposes' the ticket office are hard to convinvce and require the log of the job you wre attending attached to the Sect 172 form and NIP before they will recind the ticket.

Or has it already? Personaly Im on the verge of saying f**k it all ill go abroad and start again! 7 years on the road, 10 points in the last 10 months both sp30's via gatso clean licence before that. I feel like im living in a police state, everytime I pass a gatso I look over my shoulder to see if its loaded.

Some of my colleagues already have. Two have gone to Canada, 2 to New Zealand and 1 to Australia over te last year. I don't think the reasons were about speed cameras, but along with everything else that is happening in this country, the have been in the fortunate position where they can at least get away and try in a better place that UK is becoming.


I wonder how may good cops will find themselves out of work because of theses disgusting devices taking licences from your work mates and civilains alike? One other point, how can I be convicted on your expert opinion alone? Are all cops/police officers in the uk, road traffic (experts)????? ps utmost respect to you for doing the job you do, I have friends in the job and I Know its not a doddle, just asking your opinion

>> Edited by steveblade_uk on Saturday 14th December 22:25

---

You cannot and do not have to be convinced about the opinion of a Police Officer about speed or drunkeness.
In law they are provided with the qualification of being experts on speed and drunkeness because of the office the hold. Even a probationary constable on his first day at training school is given this qualification.

The courts accept that this is expert evidence because that is what the law says.

The difference which the courts can accept, as with any expert opinion, is down to other eveidence which may be introduced to rebut that expert evidence.

Just because Police can give expert evidence on tese subjects does not mean that it cannot be rebutted.
To say someone was speeding is accepted.
To say someone is drunk is accepted.

To say how much they were speeding or were drunk requires a little more qualification by the officer.

Thats why it requires the evidence of 2 independant Police officers to estimate the speed of a vehicle without any technical device to calibrate the speed.
In this case the courts will accept that the speed estimated by the two officers estimating the speed of the vehicle in question, was not below a speed of 'XXX' Mph although they cannot say precisely what it actually was.

hope that makes sense.

[madcop]

bobthebench said:

madcop said:

The witness can be a mechanical device. it does not need two officers, just one officer and a speedo is sufficient (provided it is calibrated) ONLY IN ENGLAND AND WALES

Police are deemed in law to be experts in two subjects. NEWS TO ME. NOT IN MY COURT THEY AREN'T

I am surprised that you are not aware of this Bob as it is a fundamental part of the law on expert evidence.

I would presume that you would listen and accept the evidence of a home office pathologist as an expert in the subject as the law says that he is. This is exactly the same as a Police officer giving evidence about speed or drunkeness and why they are allowed to give that evidence.

Whether you believe the Home office pathologist or the the police officer giving that evidence is another matter.

[madcop]

bobthebench said: Such cars do tempt fate, but as luck would have it, the Police Federation diary is just about the size to hold a driving licence. So if they carry their's with them, by coincidence inside their diary, even when stopped, they seem to get away with a warning. Strange that.

I think you are getting a bit into the realms of fantasy now Bob. To offer your licence attached to a method of identifying yo as a police oficer is more than likely to see you well and truly reported and in recent times there have been pro-active Proffessional standard units set up to catch those officers that use their discretion unfairly or are in some other way corrupt.

It would be foolish in the extreme to stop the guy driving a TVR, ask for his licence and to send him on his way without the appropriate action (this does not mean that you no longer have the discretion to warn rather than to report)once he had identified himself as a Police officer however he did it.

What would happen if tha driver happened to be the local D.I. on the corruption hit squad who was targetting the area to see who was susceptable to lettin colleagues off.

I can give you an example of this sort of set up which happened in the Met a couple of years ago where a young black chap was driving a tatty old car. He was stopped by a traffic patrol who had witnessed some bad driving and they smelt alcohol.
They subsequently require him to provide a sample of breath for a test which he declined to provide. They did not know he was part of the pro-active corruption squad, was wire for sound and had taken a mouth rinse of alcohol just prior to the stop so he smelt strongly of it. He was then arrested and taken to a Police station where he was put before the custody Sgt and the facts of the arrest were relayed to the custody Sgt. As the officers had finished their account of te arrest, a Detective Superintendant entered the custody unit and attempted to stop the procedure whereby he informed the custody Sgt that the whole incident was a sting to try and find evidence of incorrect procedure.

The custody officer listened to this and then informed the Superintendant that the subject (black guy) had actually failed to provide a sample of breath at the road side when required to do so and for that offence would be detained for the necessary evidence to be gained. The Superintendant has no authority over the custody Sgt where this is concerned and the black guy who happened to be a detective working on the hit squad was actually charged with the offence of failing to supply a test at the road side.
I am not aware that the prosecution succeded. It was probably discontinued.

The situation at the moment is that pro-active corruption squads are working all over the country to identify incorrect behaviour. To be anything other than straight down the line, is asking for trouble.

And in England/Wales, the Police Federation diary is nowhere near big enough to hold a current (other than the plastic credit card) paper driving licence in its plastic cover.