After some advice with regards to Porsche 964/Honda S2000
Discussion
Hi.
I've recently sold my Mazda RX7 Twin Turbo, which unfortunately required a new engine.
I'm now looking at getting a new car, in June ish, but i'm after a bit of advice with regards to an early 911 964, or an early Boxster, whilst comparing them both with an S2000.
I've got a budget of 12 - 13k ish and i'd originally been considering either the Honda S2000 or an early Porsche Boxster - Neither are anywhere as quick as the Mazda, but both are much newer and the insurance is cheaper. The benefits of the Honda is that its pretty much bombproof and the running costs aren't sky high. Again, the boxster should be? pretty reliable, but with higher running costs and slower than the S2000.
A colleague however recommended a Porsche 911 Carrera. I've looked at prices on Autotrader and there seem to be quite a few of the normal 911 Carreras and the newer 964. Both are considerably quicker than the S2000 and Boxster, look fantastic and the insurance on both is considerably cheaper. (I can insure the 3.6 Carrera 2 for half of what I paid on my RX7).
I'm used to quite high running costs, but what are the 964's like to live with day in day out with regards to running them? Given my budget, would you say i'm better off with an early Boxster or a 964, or even with the S2000? The main thing I have to consider is the reliability, followed by the running costs of it.
I've not driven any of the cars, although i've got a test drive of the S2000 on Saturday. What do you guys reckon?
I've recently sold my Mazda RX7 Twin Turbo, which unfortunately required a new engine.
I'm now looking at getting a new car, in June ish, but i'm after a bit of advice with regards to an early 911 964, or an early Boxster, whilst comparing them both with an S2000.
I've got a budget of 12 - 13k ish and i'd originally been considering either the Honda S2000 or an early Porsche Boxster - Neither are anywhere as quick as the Mazda, but both are much newer and the insurance is cheaper. The benefits of the Honda is that its pretty much bombproof and the running costs aren't sky high. Again, the boxster should be? pretty reliable, but with higher running costs and slower than the S2000.
A colleague however recommended a Porsche 911 Carrera. I've looked at prices on Autotrader and there seem to be quite a few of the normal 911 Carreras and the newer 964. Both are considerably quicker than the S2000 and Boxster, look fantastic and the insurance on both is considerably cheaper. (I can insure the 3.6 Carrera 2 for half of what I paid on my RX7).
I'm used to quite high running costs, but what are the 964's like to live with day in day out with regards to running them? Given my budget, would you say i'm better off with an early Boxster or a 964, or even with the S2000? The main thing I have to consider is the reliability, followed by the running costs of it.
I've not driven any of the cars, although i've got a test drive of the S2000 on Saturday. What do you guys reckon?
Have driven 964, Boxster and S2000 and of all of them I'd go for the Boxster. The 964 is a great car and a true classic, but is very dated inside (although you may like that of course) and of course just be being older could be more prone to big maintenance bills (there are a number of recurrent problems on 964s to do with flywheels and ignition systems and oil leaks but most of the decent cars out there have had these rectified by now). The 964 demands your attention pretty much all the time you are driving it, but can be very rewarding, especially on a track. The S2000 is undoubtedly a great car and very well built but you have to work hard at keeping the revs high to access the usable performance, and that can be rather tiresome in daily driving. The Boxster however has so much poise and is so easy to drive competently (but still a challenge to drive really well) that it offers the best of all worlds. As to reliability, well servicing on a Boxster even at an OPC is not overly expensive but is a pain to DIY so this SHOULD mean that most have been well serviced and not mucked around with, but that is by no means a guarantee so check the history carefully. Some history of RMS problems with Boxsters (Rear Main Seal, a quick search on this forum will throw up pages of info, but it is possibly blown out of proportion). Also, all 2.5 and most 2.7 Boxsters have a plastic rear window that is prone to cracking if not looked after properly (about £400 to get a new one put in) so check that carefully - most are fine but some look a bit ropey. I used a 2.7 Boxster for a 2 week cruis around Europe and found it to be a great mix of sportiness and realxed cruising (high speed, hood down, wind deflector fitted and still able to converse at normal volume with the missus).
All IMHO of course - ask the same question on the Honda boards and you'll get a different answer!
All IMHO of course - ask the same question on the Honda boards and you'll get a different answer!
leeme3 said:
The S2000 is undoubtedly a great car and very well built but you have to work hard at keeping the revs high to access the usable performance, and that can be rather tiresome in daily driving. The Boxster however has so much poise and is so easy to drive competently (but still a challenge to drive really well) that it offers the best of all worlds.
First of all, I should declare an interest - I have had two S2000s and moderate over at s2ki, the S2000 owners board
I have to take issue, at least to some extent, with the bit I've quoted. I accept that to get the most out of the car when driving it "properly", you do have to rev the engine. Personally, I don't find that to be a chore, especially when you consider how slick the gearbox is. But I guess it depends what you're used to - great chunks of low down torque isn't what the S2000 is about, so if it's what you're looking for, you'll be disappointed.
It is, however, perfectly happy to tootle around when you're not set on driving hard. Around town, it's as docile and pliable as any shopping car. You don't need to rev the engine hard when you're simply wanting to get from A to B.
I test drove a 2.7 Boxster before I bought my first S2000 and was rather underwhelmed by it. The 3.2S would be an entirely different proposition, of course......
£12-13K will get you a good 2000/1 S2000. There are plenty of member cars for sale at s2ki, so it might be worth a look there before buying from a dealer and paying their mark up.
For my part, after over 3 1/2 years with the S2000, it's time for a change, so I'm mulling over a move to a 993 - or perhaps a 964, given the modest budget I'm working with. Not because there's anything wrong with the Honda - far from it - simply that I fancy something different.
Good luck with the search!
Lurking Lawyer said:
I have to take issue, at least to some extent, with the bit I've quoted.
Yup, it's all personal opinions of course! Those who have more time in the seat of an S2000 are indeed more qualified than me to comment on that car (I had one on loan for only 2 weeks whereas I had a Boxster for nearly 3 years!)
I guess therefore the best advice is to go and test drive one! If you want to be really sure then consider hiring each for a weekend - at this time of year you could probably hire either a Boxster or S2000 for about £300 for a weekend, seems a fair bit but better than spending £12K and ending up with a car you change after a few months. Besides, combine it with a night away somewhere where you can drive a bit (scameras permitting as ever!) and you'll have a couple great weekends!
simonharrod911 said:
Lee - Boxster better than a 964? Specifically why, other than you can fit more hair care products in the Boxster?
You're going mad mate.
Welcome back from the F-word debates!!!
Look the chap is comparing them to an S2000 and I was trying to be nice! These days I'd have a 964 over a Boxster (if you-know-who would let me!) but only if I could keep the 996 as well! I just think the Boxster is a better bet if reliability/comfort etc are a concern. Plus as you rightly say you can get loads of hair-gel in those 2 boots!!!!!!! Think how much hair gel you'll need in a 360 Spider to keep your mullett in place!
Porsche Boxster said:
Well its obvious really one is a Honda one is a Porsche i know which one I'd go for
Spoken like a true badge snob.
I don't dispute that Honda lacks the cachet of Porsche as a marque. I do dispute that that makes the Boxster the better driver's car (although I would accept that if we were talking about the 3.2S, it probably would).
On the £12-13K budget the OP has to spend, he'll get far more for his money with an S2000 than he will in a ropey old 2.5, or high mileage 2.7, Boxster.
Depends on what is valued most in the car.
Reliability? Honda
Driving dynamics? Boxster
Character? 964
Cost to run? Honda
Everyday ease of use? Tied Boxster/Honda
Practicality (space/storage)? Boxster if +2 config not important.
Value? Boxster (consider much lower depreciation, sum of parts, as one of the best drivers tools out there...)
Ability/affordability to mod? Honda
IMHO, I think the S2k is a fantastic looking car with phenomenal engineering in each of the components that made up the car... But it's one of those strange cars which will somehow always be LESS than the sum of its' parts.
In comparison, early Boxsters were a victim of some production cost-cutting techniques, but the inherent engineering/design and coherence of the package means it will always be MORE than the sum of its' parts.
Reliability? Honda
Driving dynamics? Boxster
Character? 964
Cost to run? Honda
Everyday ease of use? Tied Boxster/Honda
Practicality (space/storage)? Boxster if +2 config not important.
Value? Boxster (consider much lower depreciation, sum of parts, as one of the best drivers tools out there...)
Ability/affordability to mod? Honda
IMHO, I think the S2k is a fantastic looking car with phenomenal engineering in each of the components that made up the car... But it's one of those strange cars which will somehow always be LESS than the sum of its' parts.
In comparison, early Boxsters were a victim of some production cost-cutting techniques, but the inherent engineering/design and coherence of the package means it will always be MORE than the sum of its' parts.
An S2000 is a great car to drive and mod but it will always just be another Honda..I don't feel that I'm a badge snob(but i like the sayin)for me it's just fantasic to own a Porsche i waited a long time to get mine, and it does have a certain sort of drivers appeal. I like both cars having owned both( i also had an imported Honda del sol) i do find Honda's rather plasticy in feel. IMHO
Porsche Boxster said:
I don't feel that I'm a badge snob(but i like the sayin)for me it's just fantasic to own a Porsche i waited a long time to get mine
So what's that if not a form of badge snobbery - buying the car BECAUSE it's a Porsche rather than because of any of its own inherent merits....?
(Just so we're clear, I'm not knocking the Boxster. If money had been no object, I would probably have taken a Boxster S in preference to the S2000. It just irks me a bit to see the S2000 dismissed because it's "only" a Honda.)
Well I own a Boxster S.
Its an absolutely brilliant car.
For your budget, though, you would be looking at 2.5 Boxster - 1998 or so. Pretty much all aficiandos agree that the car is underpowerd. (There are some who argue the 'S' in underpowered!).
I have test driven the S2000.
Its an absolutely brilliant car.
For your budget - you will get a significantly newer, lower mileage S2K. It will definitely cost less to run. In comparison to the 2.5 Boxster it will be quicker too. Sure - the handling may not be quite as sublime - but I can assure you that the S2K handling is very, very good.
Myself: I'd get the S2K.
Its an absolutely brilliant car.
For your budget, though, you would be looking at 2.5 Boxster - 1998 or so. Pretty much all aficiandos agree that the car is underpowerd. (There are some who argue the 'S' in underpowered!).
I have test driven the S2000.
Its an absolutely brilliant car.
For your budget - you will get a significantly newer, lower mileage S2K. It will definitely cost less to run. In comparison to the 2.5 Boxster it will be quicker too. Sure - the handling may not be quite as sublime - but I can assure you that the S2K handling is very, very good.
Myself: I'd get the S2K.
Hi.
Thanks for all the brilliant and useful replies.
Unfortunately, bumping up the budget isn't really an option, so the 12-13k would be the limit and hence the running costs/reliability questions.
After what you've said, i'd rather not have the 964 and have to run it on a limited budget in case anything did go wrong, so i'm going to look at both the Boxster and S2000. I've got a test drive of the S2000 tomorrow and i'm going to have to find someone to let me test drive a 2.5 Boxster.
I'm swaying toward the S2000 however, as it's going to be newer, and reliability isn't going to be a problem. I'm not too concerned about practicality, as its only me that uses it and i've not got kids to worry about (at least not as far as I know.......)
Thanks for all the brilliant and useful replies.
Unfortunately, bumping up the budget isn't really an option, so the 12-13k would be the limit and hence the running costs/reliability questions.
After what you've said, i'd rather not have the 964 and have to run it on a limited budget in case anything did go wrong, so i'm going to look at both the Boxster and S2000. I've got a test drive of the S2000 tomorrow and i'm going to have to find someone to let me test drive a 2.5 Boxster.
I'm swaying toward the S2000 however, as it's going to be newer, and reliability isn't going to be a problem. I'm not too concerned about practicality, as its only me that uses it and i've not got kids to worry about (at least not as far as I know.......)
Welsh Dan. As an 964 owner and having driven the 2.5, 2.7 and 3.2 Boxster's and thrashed a s2000 on a JP driving day (twice). My views are as follows:-
The S2000 is a great car - however like the Type R you need to rev the nuts off it to make it go. Handling is not as good as the boxster, but a great car all the same. So good my PA got one!!
The Boxster is in the same vain as the S2000 however I would say the porsche has it in the styling, brakes, handling and engine department.
The 964 cannot really be compared with either for the following:-
a) 3.6 litre 0-60 in about 5.4 secs and top end of about 165.
b) 911 engine config i.e. its hanging over the rear wheels which make driving "interesting" and fun.
c) 911 looks - there is nothing else like it - a design classic
d) the fact that its a 911 - which immediately makes YOU more interesting
e) has 4 seats
f) its exclusive - Porsche made about 100,000 964's between 89-93. How any Porsche Boxsters and S2000's are there?
Yes - I will accept that 964 are more expensive to run, however the same is true of the majority of good things in life. However this needs to be put into perspective - my last 12K service was £200 and the most expensive mechanical repair I have was to replace a broken rear wiper arm (which I broke) was £90 quid + VAT. An engine rebuild could cost about £4-6K, a clutch/fly wheel about £1200, however once complete your car will be good for another 100K+. Ask Honda how much a new engine would cost for a S2000!! Ditto Porsche for a Boxster rebuild.
Hope this helps
Best of luck
Andy
The S2000 is a great car - however like the Type R you need to rev the nuts off it to make it go. Handling is not as good as the boxster, but a great car all the same. So good my PA got one!!
The Boxster is in the same vain as the S2000 however I would say the porsche has it in the styling, brakes, handling and engine department.
The 964 cannot really be compared with either for the following:-
a) 3.6 litre 0-60 in about 5.4 secs and top end of about 165.
b) 911 engine config i.e. its hanging over the rear wheels which make driving "interesting" and fun.
c) 911 looks - there is nothing else like it - a design classic
d) the fact that its a 911 - which immediately makes YOU more interesting
e) has 4 seats
f) its exclusive - Porsche made about 100,000 964's between 89-93. How any Porsche Boxsters and S2000's are there?
Yes - I will accept that 964 are more expensive to run, however the same is true of the majority of good things in life. However this needs to be put into perspective - my last 12K service was £200 and the most expensive mechanical repair I have was to replace a broken rear wiper arm (which I broke) was £90 quid + VAT. An engine rebuild could cost about £4-6K, a clutch/fly wheel about £1200, however once complete your car will be good for another 100K+. Ask Honda how much a new engine would cost for a S2000!! Ditto Porsche for a Boxster rebuild.
Hope this helps
Best of luck
Andy
meno-porsche said:
An engine rebuild could cost about £4-6K, a clutch/fly wheel about £1200, however once complete your car will be good for another 100K+. Ask Honda how much a new engine would cost for a S2000!!
About the same, if paying Honda main dealer rates on parts and labour, judging by the quotes provided to a couple of s2ki members whose engines let go. But in reality, it's usually much cheaper to source a low mileage engine from a salvage yard and get a dealer to do the necessary work. Total cost is substantially reduced.
Plus, being a Honda, engine rebuilds tend to be the exception rather than the rule (although, to be fair, at not completely unknown. Just rare)
And as for the exclusivity point, there are probably no more than 7,500 S2000s in the UK. It has been on the market since 1999, but didn't really start to sell in any great quantity until 2002 (when Honda sold 1,500 that year). They're certainly far less common than Boxsters in my experience.
Does £12-13K buy a decent 964? Dunno. If it does, I'd go for that. It will be high mileage and getting on a bit - but it's still a 911, and a classic at that. It certainly isn't going to buy much in terms of a Boxster, in which case the S2000 makes far more sense.
Speaking as a current 964 owner and former owner of 4 hondas.
If you are on a limited buget go for the Honda every time! of the 4 I had which were all thrashed constantly, not one thing ever went wrong with them. they cost me peanuts to run and s2000 are great cars.new engine in a honda?might have happened sometime but id wager its extremely rare not so rare in a 964.
my type R handled like a dream if it had torque I would have kept it.
but I love my 964. it looks great is fun to drive and is different but its certaintly aint cheep to own!.
these cars are getting on a bit and therefore other items start to need replacing.
these cars take a lot more looking after and have there own little foibles. you could get lucky and have a perfect one. many people have had no probs with theirs.
But remember if you do have a problem it will be very,very expensive
If you are on a limited buget go for the Honda every time! of the 4 I had which were all thrashed constantly, not one thing ever went wrong with them. they cost me peanuts to run and s2000 are great cars.new engine in a honda?might have happened sometime but id wager its extremely rare not so rare in a 964.
my type R handled like a dream if it had torque I would have kept it.
but I love my 964. it looks great is fun to drive and is different but its certaintly aint cheep to own!.
these cars are getting on a bit and therefore other items start to need replacing.
these cars take a lot more looking after and have there own little foibles. you could get lucky and have a perfect one. many people have had no probs with theirs.
But remember if you do have a problem it will be very,very expensive
Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff