Car firms 'blocking green fuel'
Discussion
bbc said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4651562.stm
Car firms 'blocking green fuel'
Car makers are not doing enough to develop green alternatives to petrol, an influential government adviser says.
Japanese companies had a better record than European or American ones, Professor Stephen Blythe said.
But the industry had still not grasped the urgency of the problem - despite promoting its green credentials.
A car industry spokesman said the government could do a lot more to encourage the development of alternative fuels such as hydrogen.
"It is not just a question of manufacturers developing the technology. All of the parties involved in future fuel technology must play their part," said Nigel Wannacott, of the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders.
Bio-fuel
Mr Wannacott said Japanese manufacturers had led the way on hybrid electric and petrol cars but all major manufacturers were developing hydrogen and bio-fuel engines.
He urged the government to provide incentives and build infrastructure to encourage the take-up of hydrogen, which he said was about 15 to 20 years away.
I can never see a time when our love affair with the car wanes
Nigel Wannacott, society of motor manufacturers and traders
Analysis: Transport in 2055
But Professor Blythe, who is one of the key contributors to the government future transport strategy, claimed it was the manufacturers who were dragging their feet.
"We have had a lot of meetings with car companies, who promote their green credentials - but they say we are not going to do much for the next 20 to 30 years because our customers don't want to pay more.
"Japanese car manufacturers seem to be much more progressive than some of the European or American ones," he said.
Perpetual motion
He was speaking at the launch of a report on the long-term shape of UK transport policy.
The report includes four alternative scenarios of what life might be like in 50 years time to help industry and government plan future transport infrastructure.
The scenarios are:
* Perpetual motion - Demand for travel remains strong thanks to continued globalisation and growth. Cars have got faster but more green, air travel still popular but expensive.
* Urban colonies - Environment top priority for government. Car use expensive and restricted. Public transport widely used but rural areas lose out.
* Tribal trading - Energy crisis has caused mass unemployment. Long distance travel a luxury few can afford. World has shrunk to local communities for most people.
* Good intentions - Tough government measures restrict carbon emissions. Traffic volumes have fallen but the market has failed to provide new energy sources.
Asked which of the scenarios would appeal to car manufacturers, Professor Blythe said: "I suspect they would not favour any of them."
Road pricing
He said the way people used their cars would have to change over time to make it a more "efficient" form of transport.
Road pricing schemes, electronic networks to help people plan journeys better or even replacing private car ownership with public cars-on-demand schemes could all play a part, he added.
Mr Wannacott said the car industry backed "smarter use of cars and commercial vehicles", which would free roads from congestion.
But he added: "I can never see a time when our love affair with the car wanes."
"There will always be an element of glamour: you are safe, you are free to go where you choose, you are not restricted to doing things the way somebody else wants you to do them. It is about personal freedom."
Following on from Zods post on Transport in 2055 was this in my bbc rss news feed.
If it's worth saying, it's worth saying 3 times.
Surely a short sighted article. Sure manufacturers aren't queuing up to create hybrid cars - who;s going to buy them - how are they going to refil on hydrogen?
No commercial organisation at the moment would sensibly invest in the hydrogen economy - no appetite for very expensive cars that you can't buy fuel for understandably. (if they were indeed commercially available).
while petrol remains(relatively!) cheap and plentiful it's by far and away the most efficient option...
Surely a short sighted article. Sure manufacturers aren't queuing up to create hybrid cars - who;s going to buy them - how are they going to refil on hydrogen?
No commercial organisation at the moment would sensibly invest in the hydrogen economy - no appetite for very expensive cars that you can't buy fuel for understandably. (if they were indeed commercially available).
while petrol remains(relatively!) cheap and plentiful it's by far and away the most efficient option...
Plotloss said:
Ironic.
Henry Ford thought that all cars would be powered by hemp derived bio-methanol...
...and Rudolf Diesel designed his eponymous engine to run on vegetable oil in the first place.
In fact, there are so many easily-made, highly renewable fuels that existing engines could run on with very little modification.
As a result, I don't blame the car manufacturers at all. It is the GOVERNMENTS and the OIL COMPANIES, incidentally who are in each other's pockets, not to mention the entire economic force behind the Middle East, who ensure that there are no alternatives to oil available for the average motorist, simply because oil companies profit massively (and would implode with drastic results if people stopped buying oil), as do governments who not only collect taxes from motorists in the name of the environment, but also even more money from the oil companies, who in turn prop up the economy and help fund public/private partnerships.
The solution is simple - the oil companies need to make some poor farmers very happy indeed and buy up farms around the world to mass-produce oilseed rape oil and sugarcane methanol in, ensuring that the farmers profit handsomely from the use of their land. You could even fertilise some barren areas of Africa with oilseed rape - the economic benefits are enormous.
However, any of this involves dealing with some very powerful oil sheikhs, who realise that a move away from traditional oils would leave them increasingly destitute (despite the fact that they too could buy up some farms), and plunge the Middle East into even more insurgence, war and anarchy, only with the added pressure of economic meltdown.
If only they looked at Brazil, who've been running on veggie oil and sugar meth for decades.
Plotloss said:
Ironic.
Henry Ford thought that all cars would be powered by hemp derived bio-methanol...
He was probably smoking some at the time though :somking:
Car companies are not going to stump up for alternative fuels, but if one of the companies does manage to crack the market and get a hugely popular alternative car and starts raking in the cash then watch how fast everyone else jumps in on the act. At the moment there isn't the incentive to bring alternative cars to market, though they all have programs on the go because they know sooner or later they will need and alternative car so they put enough research into it to get something working well, but no real need for a big push into the market yet, you just end up with an overpriced dog like the Prius only bought by fashion statement types since the equivalents are no must thirstier and much cheaper.
Also the infrastructure to support alternative fuels like hydrogen needs to be created as well, they can't just swap it all overnight like the greenies would like.
Hear hear hear jaglover.
Remember how long it took manufacturers to start putting safety equipment in cars? How many toddlers got decapitated in america before they started making glove boxes out of soft plastic instead of sheet steel? Car manufacturers are like all big corps. They're there to look after their share holders rather than their customers....... therefore they won't try anything new for fear of damaging thair profits. Can't blame them really but it does mean that real alternatives to fossil fuel are being ignored due to short term profit.
Oh well, I'll let my great grandkids sort it out
>> Edited by MilnerR on Friday 27th January 15:41
Remember how long it took manufacturers to start putting safety equipment in cars? How many toddlers got decapitated in america before they started making glove boxes out of soft plastic instead of sheet steel? Car manufacturers are like all big corps. They're there to look after their share holders rather than their customers....... therefore they won't try anything new for fear of damaging thair profits. Can't blame them really but it does mean that real alternatives to fossil fuel are being ignored due to short term profit.
Oh well, I'll let my great grandkids sort it out
>> Edited by MilnerR on Friday 27th January 15:41
Twincam16 said:
...Rudolf Diesel designed his eponymous engine to run on vegetable oil in the first place.
In fact, there are so many easily-made, highly renewable fuels that existing engines could run on with very little modification.
As a result, I don't blame the car manufacturers at all. It is the GOVERNMENTS and the OIL COMPANIES, ....
Have you seen "The end of Suburbia" ? www.endofsuburbia.com
One statement in there is that everything else is "energy negative". So all alternative fuels take more energy to produce than what they give out.
I don't know if the person making that statement has shares in (insert random oil company name here) and so was guiding everyone to stick with oil for the time being or what...!
RichardD said:
...Rudolf Diesel designed his eponymous engine to run on vegetable oil in the first place.
In fact, there are so many easily-made, highly renewable fuels that existing engines could run on with very little modification.
As a result, I don't blame the car manufacturers at all. It is the GOVERNMENTS and the OIL COMPANIES, ....
Have you seen "The end of Suburbia" ? www.endofsuburbia.com
One statement in there is that everything else is "energy negative". So all alternative fuels take more energy to produce than what they give out.
I don't know if the person making that statement has shares in (insert random oil company name here) and so was guiding everyone to stick with oil for the time being or what...!
They would only be 'energy negative' given the rudimentary forms of refinement. If we set the best scientists to work on energy-saving ways to refine oilseed rape or sugarcane, like all technology, it would evolve for the better.
The aspect End Of Suburbia ignores is the fact that if fuel can essentially be 'grown' hydroponically, then not only is it renewable (and let's face it, oil isn't), but the factory could keep a little aside for itself to power itself.
It all takes thought and money that some oil baron somewhere doesn't want anyone to have. In fact, it's all run on personal greed - oil executives realise that their bonuses won't be as big if oil isn't finite and its control isn't so concentrated. Well bugger them.
bbc said:
A car industry spokesman said the government could do a lot more to encourage the development of alternative fuels such as hydrogen.
Any spokesman who tries to pretend that hydrogen 'fuel' is a potential replacement for petrol or deisel fuel is either ignorant or deceptive.
Hydrogen isn't a fuel at all in the normal sense, because we don't have a supply of hydrogen available to use; at best it is a way of storing energy just like a spring or a battery. The real issue is where is the energy coming from in the first place? There aren't many sustainable sources available to us in the UK, and apart from nuclear power none of them seem likely to supply anything like our current energy needs. So we need to either cut our domestic consumption drastically, or buy in energy in some other form. Maybe time for some of those poor African nations to start selling us solar power?
RichardD said:
One statement in there is that everything else is "energy negative". So all alternative fuels take more energy to produce than what they give out.
It doesn't always matter though. It is true that a field of rapeseed absorbs far more energy from the Sun than it gives back in the form of biodiesel, but it doesn't matter because the energy input is "free". The important thing is that it does store enough energy in a useful form that you can run all the cultivating, harvesting and processing machinery off biomass and still have a useful amount of biodiesel left over.
Gassing Station | The Pie & Piston Archive | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff